Processing Miscarriage
I recently had Jocelyn MacRae of Jocelyn Coaching on the podcast to talk about the importance of having the right support system if you have a miscarriage or abortion. No one has to be alone. Let’s dive in!
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
My name’s Jocelyn, and I work as a miscarriage and abortion supporter. so I support women in their support networks whether they’ve had a miscarriage or an abortion. I help them guide the way of their healing and release that guilt, shame, and pain that’s so commonly held between both of those areas. I just bring light to those conversations, particularly because they are such taboo.
How did you fall into this line of work?
I had a miscarriage when I was 17, and I very much just put it in a box and put it up on the top shelf and thought, I’m never going to deal with this; it’s fine. then when I was 25, I had an abortion, and suddenly that miscarriage and all of that pain came out while processing an abortion and processing the grief that happens with abortion. I started to go along my healing journey and found that there wasn’t a lot of support in either of these places. My background is as a physio, so I started doing more women’s health workshops. I did some more Allied Health counseling stuff and then stepped into doing a coaching certificate and moving into that space of holding space for people. So my story is one of those where it’s got that personal start and developed throughout my career.
Many people who work with families in the pregnant birth, whatever capacity, just fall into that work often. It’s not something that, like, when you were a little kid, you were like, I want to do this growing up. I always say, if you told me three years ago that this is the work I would be doing, I genuinely think I would have probably been like, absolutely not, there’s no way. Now you know I love it, and I love being able to support women along this journey.
The topic of miscarriage
I do feel a miscarriage can be a little bit of like a tight-lip topic like no one ever really wants to talk about it. Although, I do feel at least in the U.S. that that’s slowly getting better where people are being open about their struggles around miscarriage.
In Australia, there is certainly an opening in miscarriage, and it’s slowly becoming more of a conversation that people will feel comfortable having or it’s a conversation that people are getting better at holding that space for. Not all the time, but certainly, aspects of it are changing, which is beautiful and great, but there’s still always hesitancy. What I see with my clients is there’s still this embarrassed or ashamed feeling or even feeling like they’ve failed. However, a lot of that is building trust back within themselves. Building trust that they can trust their body. Building trust that it wasn’t their fault and slowly really working through that trust and that safety within themselves to know that it’s okay to heal and it’s okay to express themselves. It’s okay to say to work, “hey, I can’t come in today you know this I’ve had a personal matter happen.”
I certainly do find that miscarriage is spoken about a bit more than abortions and a little bit more accepted as well. I will preface that, since Roe vs. Wade, abortion is now very much a topic that is talked about. What I found is one of my missions for my business is to make miscarriages and abortions a dinner table conversation. However, I’ve found that since Roe vs. Wade and that change is that it’s now become a dinner table debate. Suddenly there’s this constant view on it, and I’m very grateful that I’ve got friends and family and the work I do, everyone’s very accepting. On the flip side, if they’re not, we just don’t talk about it. Overall, I think miscarriage is slowly moving toward being more accepted
The commonality in miscarriage
I had a pregnancy loss in the second trimester, and I remember not realizing it until after. When so many people, so many women that I knew, would be like I had this happen to me too. That did help me feel less isolated but also just even sadder. That it’s such a common thing to happen to a woman and no one ever talks about it unless it’s happened already. And by that, I mean at the moment, but there are no other discussions around miscarriage like that.
You know, it’s one in four women who have a miscarriage, according to statistics here in Australia. I would say that that’s fairly similar across the U.S. as well. It is that thing where you sit there, and you share your story, and someone goes, “yeah, I had that experience as well,” and it just takes the weight away because now you no longer feel like you’re alone, and you no longer feel like you’re navigating this whole new path. So you know it is something that’s so important that we talk about you know we can love and support people by just listening
Leaning on your community through loss
I remember in my situation at the time I was homeschooling my kids, I had two kids, and then I got pregnant with a third. What happened was, I got pregnant, then another mom in the homeschooling group got pregnant, then a third mom got pregnant. Then we all had miscarriages within weeks of each other, it was shocking for me to not be aware that it happens that often. Then all of a sudden to feel like I’m going through it and now two of my friends are going through it too. However, it did kind of help us because we were texting and supporting each other. The good news is, we did end up all getting pregnant again at the same time and having full-term healthy babies around the same time. In fact, two of our rainbow babies were born on the exact same day! While it was nice, well not nice that they had to go through a miscarriage, but nice that we all went through it with me. It was nice to realize that I wasn’t alone in this and also to have that support from people who just got it.
The big thing is, it’s someone who gets it. Someone who knows the emotions that are happening and while they don’t know exactly your experience. They can have empathy and have an understanding of remembering when they were moving through that stage.
What do you find is the hardest part of miscarriage?
I mean obviously losing a baby is hard, but in terms of the actual process and interacting with other people while they’re going through it…
This is such a hard question to answer because everyone’s experience is so different. I see that when someone has had a miscarriage when their friends start to have babies or baby showers, or the due date approaches. The due date can be hard because it’s at that point where you might be pondering. “what if” “what if this did happen?” I encourage all my clients and do this for myself; I have that day as a “Day of Honor.” So on that day, I always have my whole schedule clear, and I will spend the day doing things for myself. Doing things that connect me back, so you know people always ask me what that looks like? I might…
- Take myself out for breakfast
- Go for a massage
- Spend the day in bed journaling
- Watch a movie
It’s a day to bring slowness, and connection and just allow yourself some time to go, hey, this happened to me, and I want to spend some time just sitting in this space rather than rushing and going through. So I find that when babies are being born around you, that area is really difficult. Another difficult time is when people start to try to have a baby again. Whether they’re going for a rainbow baby or whether you know it’s a few babies down the track, it can be really difficult because it brings all of those emotions again. Will I get past weeks 9,10,15? Whatever week it was for you. So there’s almost like this heightened anxiety with that. I find that’s another common area to work with people through. To release the pain of that miscarriage so that it doesn’t impact your next pregnancy. As well as being able to spend the time when you are pregnant enjoying it rather than sitting there and being so stressed about the old experience.
Moving on and your rainbow baby
I remember I didn’t wait very long to get pregnant with my rainbow baby. I think what helped me through that pregnancy is that I had a Midwife that was incredibly compassionate, understanding, and supportive. As we got closer and closer to the week when I had lost the previous baby, I started to get more anxious. I would text her, and she would come by as soon as possible with her Doppler, and we would listen to the baby’s heartbeat. She would reassure me and say, “See, it’s fine, everything’s fine,” I just remember it was such a relief that she wasn’t dismissing my concerns. She never said, “oh, you’re fine. You’re just stressing out. She never told me that I was overreacting. She just asked, “what can I do to make you feel better in this situation?” I’d tell my midwife I’d like to hear the baby’s heartbeat. So she would come by, we’d listen, and I think I wish more parents had access to that type of provider.
I liked what you said about honoring the day, taking time off, and doing what you needed to do. I remember that because my body didn’t want to pass the pregnancy naturally, I was induced in the hospital. The baby was a boy, and he was born at the Hospital on the same floor in the maternity unit I worked at. So I remember when I was induced, I called in sick and said, ‘I’m not gonna work today.’ I don’t want to walk by that room and have that be how I have to process this day. I want to be at home and able to process it in my own way. Not when I’m trying to get through my work day, and every time I walk by that room, like getting that jarring reminder.
Absolutely, and it’s a beautiful day if you’ve got a partner who is open to it, connecting with them and spending that time together. It’s all those things; it’s setting yourself up for the best thing for me right now. And that might not even work, so that’s really good.
What kind of ways do you support families?
All my clients have the option that their partners can join in for a few sessions. I can also do a one-on-one session with partners as well. Whether it be their partner or their main support network, a friend, a mom, or whoever that might be for them. I’m always passionate about this part because we need to educate everyone on this. We need to be able to have everyone be able to be supported through this process.
So I have lots of resources I give to groups and partners, friends, and stuff like that. I’m working on creating an online webinar for people who have resources to go to. I remember when I had my abortion, and even when I’ve supported women through their miscarriages, family and friends, and partners don’t know what to do. I remember I sat there and I thought I’m just going to Google something, and I’ll see if there are any resources out there. There are not a lot of resources out there to support the partner through this, and it’s not even just supporting the partner. It’s also how to support the person going through the miscarriage or abortion and support themselves because they’ve had a loss too. They’ve had a loss, whether it be as their own son or daughter or niece or nephew or Auntie or whoever that might be. So giving them some resources about that and how to love themselves and look after themselves through that process. So they can be the best to serve and help their loved ones.
Don’t forget about the partner in the loss
I love that, and I think it’s so important because I think that it’s a mistake that I made after my loss. Everyone was so focused on me, and how I was doing. People would come over and give me shoulder rubs and talk to me, and no one really was checking in with the father of the baby. He was expected to go right back to work, but he never had the chance to process his emotions. I think it just took a while but then it just hit him really hard and we had some issues when that happened. Looking back, I really wish that I wasn’t so wrapped up in how I was feeling. I really wish that I had paid more attention to how he was feeling too.
However, it’s not uncommon, I usually say around the six to nine-month mark is when the partner or the father or the baby or the support network starts to have some little cracks show. They start to really feel it and my only opinion on this is that they have been holding so strong for their partner and their loved ones that they start to get weak over time. It’s like if you’ve been inhaling, inhaling, inhaling, you’ve got to find time to exhale. So it’s making sure that we create time to exhale throughout that process. So that it doesn’t build up to six months nine months down the track and that’s when we can start to have problems whether it be the personal relationship you know all of those areas.
What are some things that you recommend for partners to help them process?
I always say first thing is to make sure you’re looking after yourself. Make sure you have a support network. Whether that is talking to friends, family, a counselor, a coach, myself, or whatever feels right for you. Having a support network.
The next thing is to give yourself some time. Focusing on hey I actually need some time to process this myself and acknowledge that you have had a loss yourself. Sometimes there are moments, for example, your due date, honoring how you feel and honoring it and how your partner’s feeling.
Setting some clear boundaries. I’m working with a couple right now, and one of the boundaries we were speaking about was that sometimes the wife comes home, and she needs to unload. She works a really difficult job and is finding it difficult to process her loss. So she comes home, and she unloads, and her husband doesn’t feel like he has the space to hold that. He is processing his or was having a good day, and she walks in and it all sort of happens very quickly. So one thing we spoke about with boundaries and working out a space for that. Now they’ve created a two-hour block on the weekend. They sit down, and that is when they hold space for each other, sit in the grief, and honor this baby.
Give the baby a name. I always love this, so my miscarriage was Charlotte and my abortion was Oakland. What I love about giving the child a name, is that it creates a personal connection rather than saying the baby or the miscarriage, you can just refer to it as a name. I get my clients to do this; however, if they don’t want to, that’s more than okay. So this couple sits down, and they have this two-hour connection time to connect and how they’re feeling. What it stopped though is, it stopped the wife from coming home and unloading. Instead, she might say, ‘hey, I’ve had a tough day today can you sit with me’ then he has the chance to say yes or no. Then if he says no, it’s not a personal thing. Now, she can say all right, cool, I’m gonna go speak with my friend and have a chat with her so that I’ve got somewhere safe to spill. That’s one of the big things, and having compassion for your boys moving through a really difficult time and knowing that you will get through this. It’s just a time where you’re both grieving; you’re grieving all the what-ifs, all of those aspects, but you’re also grieving the version of you before the miscarriage. You were a different person before that experience, and now that you’ve had that experience, it can be really difficult.
Ask before you unload
I love asking permission before just unloading. I think I need to get better at doing that too. Just asking them honestly by saying I need to vent. Are you ready for it, or do I need to talk to someone else?
I do it with a few of my like very close girlfriends and my mum. What I love about it is allows them to say no. It’s funny, I’ve got this one girlfriend, and if we jump on the phone, I might say to her, or I might text her to say, ‘hey do you have space today?’ Then if she replies, saying no, no problems at all, love you. Speak to you later. There are no hard feelings; it doesn’t change how you look at that person. It’s just you’ve got your stuff right now, and that’s what you can hold and I’m gonna respect that. So I’m gonna find support in another place.
I have a friend who we text almost every day, and what I love about her is if I text like I just need to vent. She will ask before I start if I’m looking for her to listen or if I want help to problem solve. The thing is, 99% of the time, I just want her to listen. I know how to figure out this solution on my own, but I just need someone to listen to me right now.
I just need someone to listen to me and let me feel heard then and move from there.
I had this experience when I was going through my miscarriage people don’t know what to say. So sometimes they attempt to say something out of compassion and out of a need to feel like they’re helping and it just comes out terribly. For example, I was told…
- “oh it was meant to be”
- “there’s probably something wrong with the baby”
- “you could have another one”
All of those just felt like rubbing salt into my wound.
Can you talk a little bit about what to say to someone who has experienced a miscarriage?
All of those things are so common, and I’m so glad you said that. It’s one area that I am really passionate about because none of those comments help. I know that they always come from a loving place. However, it’s always a thing of how is that helpful right now. When I get emotional I can get really sassy. So I have quite literally said to people, ‘how is that helpful right now?’ Which is always very fun for my family and friends.
So my recommendation is, beforehand I always say to take a big breath. Before the first thing that comes out of your mouth. When someone’s shared this really big thing, take a big breath. Less is more, sometimes like we just said, we just want someone to sit with us. Let us feel seen and heard and loved. It actually doesn’t matter what they say, it’s actually about just their presence and sitting with you.
So when we are saying things, even just saying hey I’m thinking of you today. I always share around Mother’s Day and around Christmas and stuff. Simply sending a text or just saying: love you and thinking of you today I know today will be hard is there anything I can do to make you feel loved today? We don’t want to dismiss it because what those other comments do is dismiss it. Saying “oh it wasn’t meant to be” dismisses this whole painful experience for that person. Rather than saying something along the lines of “hey that would have been really hard do you want to talk me through it?” or “hey that would have been really hard how can I love and support you today?” “Can I give you a hug?”
Ask before you hug!
One thing I always tell people to do is ask for permission to give a hug. Sometimes people go I don’t want to be touched. Another tip, if someone starts crying when they’re sharing their story don’t rush to go and grab the tissues. When you rush to go and grab the tissues what you’re saying unconsciously you can’t cry don’t cry. It’s almost a rejection of going please don’t cry, here I’ll grab the tissues and we’ll fix that problem. Try allowing them to express it and saying “would you like me to go and grab the tissues or should we sit here for a bit longer?”
That’s why I always say at the start take a big breath, and check in with yourself very quickly first. Then sitting with this with that person rather than rushing into it and trying to smooth it over and fix it. Not telling them, it wasn’t meant to be, maybe there was a problem. The reality is, even if there was a problem it still would have been really hard. Even if there were health concerns it’s still a really hard time. There’s still a loss and sitting with someone in that space is more impactful than what you can say normally.
Take your time with it
I did feel like that when people would make those comments to me. I would think to myself, am I not even allowed to grieve this? Why are you trying to cheer me up why aren’t I allowed to have some space to grieve? I don’t think this is something that I should be feeling relieved about. Just because you said something like it was meant to be or whatever, and I think no, I am an atheist. So when people a lot of the times would say to me like ‘oh, your baby’s in a better place now.’ I would stop and think to myself think about what you’re saying. You’re saying that your my baby was better off dead than with me like death is a better place for my baby. The response that I actually found the most helpful was from a friend of mine who had also gone through a miscarriage. She just was like “this f***ing sucks” that’s what she said to me. I’m like yes, and she like cried with me and that was the most comforting response. Just this f***ing sucks because it does, it f***ing sucked.
She was meeting you where you were at. Instead of trying to bring into this positive space or this space of oh, it’s all going to be okay, all right. She agreed and leveled with you that right now you’re feeling like this is f***ing s**t so I’m gonna meet you there. Sometimes just acknowledging that it’s f***ing s**t and this is a s***y experience is so impactful.
The physical process of a miscarriage
This question is always tricky to answer because it is so different for everyone. It can depend on where you’re along in terms of your progress and your pregnancy. I always say if you’re nervous or in doubt, contact your Midwife or your doctor. They’re going to be able to do those safe checks better than I can explain to you. Generally, you should be on alert for
- Any pain
- Any blood
- Any things like that are signs of time to go
Listen to your intuition telling you something just doesn’t feel right, or something just isn’t working. Then acting on it and going and seeking that medical support.
I imagine most of your clients have already had a miscarriage when they contact you. So if you were to talk to someone who may be their hormonal levels were low, or there was no heartbeat, and they were sent them home to pass the baby.
What are some physical comfort measures to have on hand and try to relieve the discomfort of a miscarriage?
Your stock standard heat pack things like that. Again, your doctor’s going to be able to tell you a bit more about your painkillers and things. However, a heat pack, having a nice warm shower, or anything to make yourself a bit more comfortable. It’s hard to try and distract yourself and give yourself something else to think. However, if we’re sitting there and focusing on the pain and the discomfort, it can almost feel like that’s even harder to process. Whenever I’m sad, unwell, or anything like that, I only want a cup of tea and Japanese Food. I don’t know why it’s Japanese food, but having those comforts and those times to connect.
In regards to hormones, I had issues with my hormones both times. So I worked quite closely with a naturopath to rebalance my hormones afterward. Allowing our bodies that time to heal after our miscarriages or our abortions. We have dropping hormone levels so essentially have a version of postpartum so being aware of that. I know some doctors, for example, for my clients and even for myself, immediately put women on contraception. The only way I can explain it from my experience was it’s like my body, and my hormones went into shock. One minute we’re pregnant, and now we’re on hormonal birth control, and now what do I do now? I didn’t know my next step, so I worked with a naturopath to come off contraception, which worked very quickly. I came off contraception and worked with a naturopath to reduce those hormones and get my body back into a state where it was moving happily. My body was able to balance hormones it was able to shift what it needed and allow that process to happen. Which, for most of my clients and me, has taken about three to four months to rebalance. As well as allowing that process to be complete not only emotionally but also physically.
Trying to get pregnant again
If families are interested in trying again, do you recommend that they wait for those three to four months? It depends because everyone’s story is different. I work closely with a few doctors and midwives and things, and you know every single person’s different. Each hormone is different, my hormones took three months to get to where they were balanced. So it can take a long time it did for me, but I’ve had clients balance out within one to two cycles. So it’s different for every single person.
- It can depend on how far along you are
- it depends on your liver
- it depends on your kidney
- all of the rest of your body
Work closely with a doctor that you feel comfortable with or work with a naturopath if that’s the way you feel called. I’m really big on trusting yourself, so if it feels like the right time, go ahead. If it doesn’t feel like the right time, then don’t.
Experiencing Postpartum after a miscarriage
Going back to what you said about realizing that your body goes into postpartum. I think I did experience that, and I was lucky enough that my midwife warned me that that would happen. She told me that you have to act like you had the baby. You need to rest, nourish and hydrate and everything. Depending on how late in your pregnancy, you can even have your milk coming in. Which is kind of like, again can feel like rubbing salt in the wound because you have all this milk for a baby that you don’t get to hold or to bring home.
I had an incredibly strong client; her milk came in, and she pumped. So she could donate the milk and remember telling her how incredibly strong that was. To get to a place of knowing you don’t have a baby hold but that you can still give this gift. She said it was a way of honoring her loss, and it was a way of the legacy living on. She did it for about two-three months and said it was a really hard but healing experience for her. I’ve only ever had one client do that, but it was a beautiful way for her to honor herself and her baby.
I’ve known a couple of people who have done that. They’ve used the same exact words, saying, ‘this is my way of honoring the baby that I lost’ and ‘this is my way of healing.’
What does that process look like when someone wants to work with a miscarriage or abortion doula?
We have an initial phone call conversation or an initial Zoom conversation. We chat about where they’re at, what that looks like, if I am the right person to support them, and if I’m not the right person to support them. If I’m not, then I can pass them on to a few different people that I work with or other organizations or not-for-profits and things. If I am the right fit, we figure out where can I help, where the barrier is, and sitting with them in that space and hearing some of their stories.
I work with all my clients for a minimum of three months. The reason it’s for three months is because that one session isn’t going to heal. It takes time and it’s really beautiful to have someone walk you through that journey. Also, walk you through the highs and walk you through the lows. I find that clients will sometimes have had their miscarriage recently, within a few weeks, and come and see me. However, I’ve also worked with clients who have been four or five years post-miscarriage and they are still feeling this pain. Also, when they go to have a baby again. It can really depend on the person and where they’re at it’s again when you feel called to get help. I’ve had some clients that have come to me saying that they’re not ready to sit in it but it’s just happened. I just tell them it’s okay, now is not the time because you’ve got to go when the right time is for you.
I think we need more people like you on this planet; people who are willing to work in these hard spaces, it’s not easy. I know because I also work in an emotional job, where hormones are raging all over the place and there are a lot of mixed feelings. It can be really draining too but it sounds like you must do a really good job of like protecting your own space and making sure that you’re doing self-care.
I have very good boundaries and I take on a limited number of clients so that I can ensure that I look after myself as well. I also have a beautiful support network around me that can support. I love this work so you know I hate to say it because it sounds so cliche but it doesn’t feel like work to me. It feels so beautiful and exciting and I always feel so privileged to be able to hear everyone’s story. Whether that be someone who’s just sent me a message or a voice note on Instagram sharing their experience or if it’s someone who I’m working with coaching-wise or someone who has seen me at a workshop and had a conversation with me. Every single time, I sit there and feel so honored and humbled. It’s a privilege to hear a person’s story and be able to hold space for that person and love on them.
Thank you for coming and being talk about this really really important topic that I don’t think is talked about enough. We need more people like you out there supporting these families because it’s such an important job. It’s so hard to know what to do unless you’ve gotten that training or have been in that space so I’m glad that people in your area have you to look to for that support.
Thank you, thank you! It’s such a beautiful space to be in I get to meet people from all over the world. Though I’m based in Australia I have clients in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, New York, Canada, and all these beautiful countries. I get to have these conversations but have this mutual connection and support and love for everyone because we’re all having this human experience of loss.