Everything You Need To Know About Colic with Megan Dishman, The Colic Nurse

Megan explains the ins and outs of colic and provides real solutions for families to try.

Megan Dishman, our guest in today’s episode of the Baby Pro podcast, is highly knowledgeable and experienced in the field of colic. She has a deep understanding of the challenges faced by parents with colicky babies and has dedicated herself to providing support and education on the topic. 

 Megan is committed to supporting parents and caregivers in their journey through her work as an ER nurse and her informative Instagram platform, The Colic Nurse. She provides valuable resources, education, and the most up-to-date research to help families facing the challenges of colic.

 Throughout the podcast episode, the hosts and guest discuss various aspects of colic, including its definition, causes, and strategies for coping with the stress and exhaustion it brings. They also touch on the importance of seeking medical care and support, as well as sharing some unusual colic tricks that parents have tried.

 Make sure to keep listening to this podcast episode as it contains important information and insights that you definitely don’t want to miss!

In this episode, you will learn the following:

• The definition of colic and how it differs from normal baby fussiness.
• The potential causes and factors that contribute to colic, including gut dysbiosis.
• The timing of colic, when it typically starts and resolves.
• Strategies for coping with the stress and exhaustion of managing a colicky baby, such as getting breaks outside of the house, seeking therapy and support, using noise-canceling headphones, and bouncing the baby on a yoga ball.
• When to seek medical care or advice for colic, including red flags to watch for, such as mucus or blood in the baby’s stool, poor weight gain, or concerns about the baby’s well-being.

Connect with Megan:

Instagram: Instagram (@thecolicnurse)

Connect with Shelly: 

my website: Massachusetts IBCLC | Lactation Consultant – Shelly Taft

Instagram: Instagram (@shellytaftibclc)

Resources Mentioned: 

 Article: Maternal Assisted C-Sections:

Maternal Assisted C-Sections

Episode Transcript:

Megan Dishman 0:00
As soon as someone mentions to you or that you think a baby is colicky, that should be your sign to like text, your neighbor and your mother in law and everyone that you can think of anyone that would be willing to come help you in the wee hours of the night and say, Hey, I need help, like I’m struggling.

Shelly 0:17
Hi, I’m Shelly.

maria 0:18
And I’m Maria. And you’re listening to the baby pro podcast, where we talk about everything in anything related to pregnancy and through the first year of your child’s life.

Shelly 0:26
Every episode we will discuss an interview experts and all the answers to the questions expectant and new parents want to know, such as creating the perfect birth plan, infancy, and tips and tricks for parenting a newborn and welcome

maria 0:39
to the show.

Shelly 0:42
Hi, Maria. Shelly. Morgan just got back from camp right.

maria 0:47
She actually got back on Friday night. How did it go? Good. I want to say it was a good trial run. There were certainly some things that could have been better when she was definitely homesick. But there were parts of it. She really enjoyed and, and she is willing to like explore it again next summer. So not a complete waste. And definitely really enjoyed writing lessons and is interested in continuing that so I’m excited for that. Yay.

Shelly 1:15
Was she an easy baby or a difficult baby? And by difficult I mean, you know, quote unquote, difficult

maria 1:23
right now. She was 100% of dandelion, like just could care less. Like, whatever.

maria 1:30
super chill.

maria 1:32
Yeah, very chill baby very, very rarely cried about anything. But she was also really sleepy baby for she was one of those babies that really like the first two weeks really needed to be encouraged to eat. But kind of once we got over that hump and got into a routine, just like yeah, sure, whatever. Let’s do it. ECP match. For sure. I’m pretty sure you know, nature was trying to load me into you know, doing it again. Yeah. Unfortunately, that timeframe passed. But yeah, yeah. I had

Shelly 2:09
to eat very easy, dandelion kids, and then Hunter, my orchid, which I’ve talked about before, on the podcast and how you just screamed all the time. And I really wish that I had the resource that we have this week on the episode, because we are speaking with Meghan Dishman, who is on Instagram as the collagen nurse. And she’s talking to us all about colic, the C word, the other C word.

maria 2:35
My least favorite term in pediatric medicine. It does mean diagnosis.

Shelly 2:47
And we don’t know why go home and good luck.

maria 2:49
Yeah, yes, they cry a lot. Good job. We’ll call it colic. Yeah. Best wishes to you and your family.

Shelly 2:57
But before we speak with Meghan, I was reading about this new type of C sections that they are starting to do in Australia. And they are calling them maternal assisted C sections. And it’s when the mom actually reaches down and lifts her baby out of this incision.

maria 3:20
I’ve heard of that before. I’ve actually heard of Mother assisted C sections before I don’t it’s not completely new. It’s just not something we do here. Or we heard you it’s very rare. Yeah, I’ve heard of

Shelly 3:35
Family Centered C sections where the drape is lowered or the drape is clear, and blah, blah, like the dad can cut the umbilical cord or whatever. Yep. I hadn’t heard yet, of the mom actually lifting the baby out. But it says in the article that they have been doing it since 2017. It’s just this is the first time we’re reporting on this.

maria 3:58
Yeah, I guess so. Interesting. Very, very cool. I think that that definitely would not be for everybody. But if that were something you were you would be open to. I think with C sections in particular, I feel like it it can be very disempowering, you know, process that we’re supposedly supposed to just do kind of gets taken away from us for whatever reasons. And I think being able to be more involved in that can kind of restore a little bit of that.

Shelly 4:33
Yeah. And that’s exactly what the doctor says in the article. He’s saying that so far, it’s showing to improve the bonding between mothers and newborns. And that it is a powerful autonomous act of the woman to participate in bringing her own baby out into the world something that many C section moms feel like they didn’t achieve. Yeah, for sure. So the step in the right direction. And let’s move on to our core Question of the week,

maria 5:01
my favorite.

Shelly 5:05
Okay, this week’s question is, after you wean, how long does it take the milk to dry up? It has been three months since I’ve weaned and it’s still there. I think we may have gotten a similar question to this before, or I’ve been talking about it. Yeah, yeah.

maria 5:19
i It’s so subjective. I think I told you it took like a year for my milk to really dry up like a solid year. And even at that point, I think it was still like, I could still like express a few drops for a while after that. Yeah, it took a long time for my body to be like, I guess we’re done.

Shelly 5:45
For me, it took about 18 months before I could stop. Yeah, but I was also pregnant and breastfeeding for over seven years straight. My body was like, I forgotten how to not not.

maria 5:59
I forgot what it’s like not to be making all this stuff. Yeah.

Shelly 6:03
Yeah, so totally normal for you to still be able to squeeze out a small amount of milk three months after you lean. Yeah. And as long as it’s not, you know, if you’re squeezing out something that’s like green or black or something, you want to go see your, your primary care, or if you’re having like breast pain or something. Yeah. But otherwise, totally normal, and it might stick around for a while.

maria 6:26
Just consider it bonus.

Shelly 6:28
Our bodies are so weird, but a

maria 6:30
bonus metabolic activity.

Shelly 6:37
Our minds are wild,

maria 6:38
our minds, like, Yeah, we’re gonna grow a whole person. And we’re gonna grow a whole organ to support that whole person, but it’s disposable, so don’t worry about it. And then we’re gonna make food to actually keep that whole new human being alive. Wow.

Shelly 7:00
And then we’re gonna make you forget that how hard it was that you’re

maria 7:03
willing to do that all about how painful it was stressful. It was all those things.

Shelly 7:10
For sure, Science is so cool. If you want us to answer a question on the podcast, you can submit it to me on Instagram. I am actually tapped ibclc. And next up, we’ll be speaking with Megan. This week, I’m so excited to have Megan Dishman on and she’s going to talk to us all about the ins and outs of colic. Megan is a Midwesterner, a gelato lover and a dance in your kitchen to Whitney Houston kind of girl. She works at Children’s Hospital on a cardiac care infant unit and graduated with her BSN in 2020. Since then, she has been working in the Salt Lake Valley as an ER nurse, she gave birth to her darling and very colicky baby girl in 2021 and quickly realized how isolating and exhausting the experience is. After seeing multiple pediatricians and feeling dissatisfied with the resources available for the struggling families. She decided to start the colic nurse on Instagram, a resource with tips, tricks and updates on the latest research on infantile colic. She strongly believes that these parents need more support and education to get through the delirious sleep deprivation that comes with a colicky baby. She is currently working towards her board certification in lactation consulting, and her ebook The colic handbook will be coming at the end of 2023. I am Megan, how are you? Doing? Well, thank you so much. How are you doing? Yeah, I’m so glad you’re here to talk about calling because I feel like that’s such an important topic that I get a lot of questions about and I experienced myself as a parent as a mom. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, so

Megan Dishman 8:50
I’m originally from Ohio. I grew up there and then went out to school for nursing school. I’ve been in the ER nurse the last few years and then I have an almost two year old daughter who is keeping me very busy and on my toes.

Shelly 9:05
To is such a fun age. I feel like it’s my favorite ages like six months to like two and a half. I know they call it the terrible twos, but I never had the terrible twos. I always had the fearsome threes.

Megan Dishman 9:18
Oh, okay, that’s, that makes up for that. She’s like climbing out of cribs and she is her wild child. So trying to keep up

Shelly 9:29
the leadership skills. Oh, yeah, that’s what it is. Now, did she have colic? Is that how you kind of started down this journey?

Megan Dishman 9:36
Yes. So she was super colicky and I don’t think we realize at first that it was colic. I think we just thought we were bad at parenting. You’re like, oh, everyone else does this. It is fine. It has a multiple of these. So before we would had our baby I peed I thought I was like decently repaired. I had worked at a children’s hospital. I had worked at a pediatric clinic. I thought I knew what I was. was getting into I was like, This is gonna be great like all the baby struggles I’m here for it. And then she came out and like nothing we did made it better for like, my baby broken. Yes, yeah, literally ever. Why am I so tired all the time like it never does walk me around this tired and so

Shelly 10:19
that kind of started you down the path for your research into colic and decision to start your account and everything.

Megan Dishman 10:26
Yes I literally remember sitting like nap trapped with my baby. And I’m so tired like all I want is a nap but I’m holding my baby and I don’t want to fall asleep with my baby in my arms and but I like literally remember looking through Instagram and searching like, is there someone called the college nurse because I could really use that right now. And there was nothing there were like zero resource like there’s nothing at all. Yeah, I know. I literally I texted my sister and she’s like, You should start it like you can do it. Like okay, but I’m really tired right now. Yeah, so, once I baby was a little over one, then I was like, Okay, I have

Shelly 11:01
energy to do this. I feel like colic is like a general term that’s thrown around, it’s often interchanged with other words like reflux and stuff like that. And I feel like a lot of parents that I work with, don’t really have a clear definition of what exactly colic is. So can you provide a clear definition of what colic is and how it differs from normal baby fustiness?

Megan Dishman 11:26
Yes, yes, I think that’s so important. There are so many misconceptions about colic. It’s really such an umbrella term, even by pediatricians when they use it. But we have what’s called Wessels criteria, it was made in the 1950s. And it basically defined colic by the rule of threes. So they’re crying at least there are three hours a day, at least three days a week for at least three weeks. Which if you think of that, as a definition, it’s a really poor definition. Like there are a million things that can make a baby cry, and make a baby cry more than normal. So for me, it’s more of a symptom than a diagnosis. It’s more of like, hey, something’s going on, we need to look into 100 different things and rule them out. Before we just throw it under this blanket term, your baby is super collocate. For us, our baby was really bad. It peaked around like six to 10 weeks. And for most babies, this fades by about four months old. And that’s very normal. We don’t know exactly why it happens. But we have some ideas. But overall, it’s just miserable for parents in

Shelly 12:28
the meantime. Yeah, I remember my son who was my third, he would scream from 2am to 5am every morning for almost three months. And then and then he finally outgrew it. But, and I would talk to the pediatrician and they were trying to rule I feel like colic in my experience was we’ve ruled all these other common reasons why babies cry out. And so colic is your baby cries and we don’t know why. Go home and good luck.

Megan Dishman 12:58
Yes, let’s see, I

Shelly 12:58
feel like that happens that way.

Megan Dishman 13:00
Oh, 100% 100%. And I mean, it’s, that’s really what the definition is to is, is that it’s an otherwise healthy babies. So there’s no like they’re gaining weight. Well, they, you know, there’s no obvious allergy, there’s no like virus going on. They don’t have like a broken clavicle that you can blame it on. And for some reason, these babies still just like how well, and especially like with your situation, especially in those witching hours for the evening, and late at night. It just gets worse and worse and nothing you do. Like you try all the things. You take the baby on a drive and put them in their car seat. You try them. You tried to him outside, you wrap up like nothing’s working. You found that you changed your diaper. Like you’ve covered the basics. And no matter what you do, they still just cry. And yeah, very similarly, the pediatricians. I had a couple really good pediatricians, but even still, they were like, Yep, good luck. Sorry, that your Safaree

Shelly 13:53
Yeah. Yeah. And it was really hard. And I feel like if I had had my son first, I don’t know if I would have had more babies do that because it was so hard. And he would often wake up my second and she’d come sit on the bed and all three of us but just sit there and cry. What is the difference between say, like, how would appearance tell this is reflux versus this is colic?

Megan Dishman 14:23
Great question. colic is usually more like I mentioned in those witching hours in the evening reflux usually happens more with like, you can pattern it after the feeds and see that oh, it’s usually after a feed. With reflexes, well usually have an episode. If they’re laying back, they’re more frustrated with colic, they will cry that doesn’t matter what position they’re in. So those were some of the ways to tell there are things like Silent reflex, as I’m sure you know, where it’s not as obvious but a lot of times with Reflex if you see them split up, you can tell that they have a reaction to it. Whereas colicky babies are usually happy spitters meaning that when they split up that’s not what triggers That’s not what’s making them upset.

Shelly 15:03
Right and I think that’s the biggest the very least that’s the easiest way that I explained their families I work with like reflux or babies fussy throughout the day, colic, it’s just one time of day and then the rest of the day they’re they’re fine. So it’s like a Jekyll and Hyde situation with your baby. Where is your like, Okay, what just happened to me baby? Because it’s not the same baby I had throughout the day.

Megan Dishman 15:24
Yes, absolutely. I remember with our daughter, she was like, the morning was fine. We get up, we could read books. So you play she would hang out on the floor, like, do your thing. But then Yeah, as soon as like 3pm hit and rolled around we were we just need to brace ourselves. So

Shelly 15:41
do they know what some of the potential causes or factors that contribute to colic and babies are?

Megan Dishman 15:48
Yeah, so we have a few theories that kind of ranges from anything from like infant migraines to like, babies not adjusting well outside the womb. But the most convincing to me that we have the most data on is called a gut dysbiosis. Meaning when babies born their gut microbiome is just forming and developing and like forming those colonies. And for some reason, babies with colic, their guts, just not very well developed. And so their digestion is really grumpy, which is why you can see with babies Oh colleague, like they usually pull their knees up, they tense up, you know, their face turns red, they’re clenching their fists, sometimes they’re arching their back, like they look uncomfortable. And so a lot of people think it’s due to their gut.

Shelly 16:27
One of the things that I told myself, and I’m not saying that this is accurate at all, I was just telling this to myself to like, get through that time. I you know, I had a very stressful pregnancy. And so I wasn’t like blaming myself or anything, but I felt like okay, so I expose my babies to a lot of stress hormone when he was in the room, and maybe he just needed to work that out. Is there any research or anything that shows that to be true at all?

Megan Dishman 16:57
There’s nothing really obvious. There’s like really random data we have on call it that, like doesn’t quite fit together. And one of those things is that women who do shift work, their babies are more likely to have colicky baby like they’re more likely to have colicky babies, which I have no idea how that how that fits in. But I definitely like when I read that as a mom who was an ER nurse while I was pregnant, I was thinking literally the same thing. I was like, I expose my baby to too much adrenaline and cortisol when she was in the womb and like, this is my fault that she’s colicky. I think it’s a very common feeling to have. The reality is, you can’t predict it. Like most women can have multiple pregnancies where one is randomly colicky, and the others aren’t. So I think it’s important not to blame yourself, first of all, sure. But yeah, there’s no real data on like, stress hormones, cause again,

Shelly 17:47
and you know, we’re getting more and more research about the importance of the gut microbiome and for lifelong health in general, not just for colic, but if that seems to be the leading theory, are probiotics, kind of an option that people are trying for colic?

Megan Dishman 18:04
Yes, this is actually one of the promising areas of research that we finally have something that works. So putting baby on probiotics, something that contains the strain Lactobacillus reuteri is one of the most well studies. So things like the Gerber soother BioGaia are ones that contain it, and that are pretty well studied. But if you have baby on that for 21 days, that significantly reduces the crying time for baby, which for me, 21 days sounds long, but if the option is to have the same amount of crying at the end of the 21 days, or having reduced crying, I’ll take the reduced cry. So there’s that if you get big on a probiotic. And then as well, if in the last four weeks of pregnancy, you can get mom on a probiotic, and especially one that contains the same the lactobacillus root, right, that actually reduces the likelihood that baby even has called in the first place. So that kind of places in the direction that mom’s gut microbiome is really important during pregnancy as well. And that can help prevent that for baby. And then if you know babies already born and mom is breastfeeding, if you can get mom on a probiotic containing after regularise, so like Octavia, basically for 15 consecutive days, that also reduced drying time. So all of those things are like, okay, so clearly it’s pointing toward the gut microbiome. We don’t understand why baby’s gut microbiome is, you know, messy. But if we can do things that help it and boost it, it’s really it really

Shelly 19:23
makes a difference. I just finished reading a book. I think it’s called your infants. It’s about like a baby’s microbiome. And it talks a lot about how each generation that’s born. Our gut microbiome is having less and less diversity, because of the way that we sterilize everything now and because of the food that we eat. And then of course, the risk of C sections right and people who get antibiotics during labor and delivery and then and then have to have C sections and thank goodness that we have C sections and because they save lives, and if you have a C section you needed it and that Great, but that does mean that your baby’s gut microbiome was impacted because they weren’t seated. As it happens with vaginal birth. Have you read a lot about that as well?

Megan Dishman 20:12
Yeah, I actually, because intuitively, you would think that babies had C sections that have more colic, but we don’t have any data showing that yet, which is really surprising, actually, most babies, their gut microbiome from the studies we have, and they’re not perfect, but their gut microbiome catches up by about 12 weeks to other babies, just from their environment, or from breastfeeding or things like that. So it’s not like a, you know, if you have a C section, your baby’s gonna have a colic.

Shelly 20:41
Right, it’s just one of those things that, that it’s like, okay, this was a risk factor. And we just need to be aware that that risk factor right there. Yeah, yeah, just like like C sections can delay your milk coming in, it doesn’t mean it is. But if you have a C section, it’s good to know that so that you can be on the lookout for that.

Megan Dishman 20:58
Right? And actually thinking ahead, okay, my gut, my baby’s gut is a little impacted by this, let’s proactively try probiotics or go on probiotics, things like that. Right? Like

Shelly 21:08
in that last four weeks of pregnancy, like you said, right? Yeah, that’s great. That’s great information to know, what age does colic typically start?

Megan Dishman 21:17
So usually, it starts around two weeks old, peaks around six to eight weeks, and then results about four month mark. So it’s really once you’re once you’re really good and tired at home, then it kicks in?

Shelly 21:32
And do they have any research showing why the timing is that way, and it’s linked to the microbiome?

Megan Dishman 21:39
Actually, this is one of my theories on it to your gut microbiome really colonizes and develops really well around that four month mark. So everything’s pointing to the gut microbiome. I really do. That’s when it really starts developing and kind of solidifying a little better. And so yeah, it’s honestly a really good point that it might just be during that era where your guts not developed yet.

Shelly 22:03
And when the babies do have a colic episode, is it typically just once a day or there are some babies who have multiple episodes a day,

Megan Dishman 22:12
there are some babies that do have multiple a day, like I said, it usually is more in the evening, things like that. So some babies will have an episode right before naps and things like that. Then if they get a good nap in some, it’s sometimes it’s a little bit of a reset, and you can start over. But yeah, it’s usually just kind of worse than some worsens toward that evening night and then results in the morning.

Shelly 22:31
And do they have any research or any ideas of why it happens more commonly in the evening?

Megan Dishman 22:36
Nothing super solid. One way theories is melatonin. So melatonin actually helps your gut relax, and serotonin that makes your gut contract. And so in the evening, babies tend to have especially to your mom’s note, they tend to have more melatonin in their system. So you would think it would be the other way around, actually. But babies don’t produce their own melatonin. They don’t produce it. cyclically, like almost circadian rhythm like we do. And so for babies who aren’t getting much melatonin any other way, they kind of just have more serotonin during the night because they’re on opposite schedules of us anyways. So maybe that’s part of it, but I there’s no really solid research showing why.

Shelly 23:17
And then as, as a professional and also as a parent, what did you feel like having a colicky baby affect your well being and affect your sleep patterns?

Megan Dishman 23:29
Oh my gosh, it made me crazy. It made me so delirious. I think for one, it impacted my idea of motherhood. Because that was my first baby. That was my impression of motherhood was that I had a crying baby and I couldn’t get me baby just crying. So I must be bad at being a mom. And so it was one it made you feel like a terrible mother. And then two, I mean, you’re just so tired. Like for us, I probably got four hours of sleep most nights, and then was trying to make that up during the day. And that was my husband helping a ton. And I mean, you’re just so deliriously tired that decision making is really hard. Helping with your baby crying is really hard. Like all of those things just become infinitely more difficult. And the desire to go out and see anyone is zero because you’re so tired, and fresh. She was born during respiratory season. And so we’re trying to limit the people that are coming to your house because at the time we were really worried about COVID And so you’re just like isolated, you feel like a terrible mom, you have all the postpartum hormones you’re tired is could be like is a perfect storm to try to make you have all sorts of anxiety and depression.

Shelly 24:33
So yeah, and I remember feeling because my son was not my first and I had two very easy babies. And I was very young when I had kids. And I remember thinking, Why is everybody complaining? This isn’t that hard? And then I had my son and I was like, oh, oh, now I know now. But I remember just the feeling that the two feelings that would come up the most for me would be helplessness, right? Because your baby’s just screaming and you can’t do anything about it. You can’t comfort them. You can’t like you said, like, as your baby’s parent, you’re supposed to be there and be able to comfort them and take care of them and you feel like you can’t do it. And then the other feeling that will come up with sometimes I would feel like I was being personally rejected that maybe, like, maybe we didn’t like me. Which, in hindsight, of course, it’s like ridiculous. But when you’re in that moment, and you’re sleep deprived, and you’re so like, desperate for help you just you think irrational thoughts, right?

Megan Dishman 25:35
Oh, absolutely. Well, and you like, see, you know, even in like the cute little storybooks that you get for your baby, or in everything you read, like mom is supposed to be the magic fix. You know what I mean? Like being in mom’s arms, or breastfeeding with Mom is supposed to be this magically comforting fix for baby. And when babies like pushing away and screaming at you, you’re like, oh, like, I am not a magical fix for you. And when you like Guantanamo Bay, they use the sound of crying babies as torture like this, oh, my brain. I know. It’s not terrible. Like this in your brain, like it lights, mom’s cells on fire, it tells you like, hey, something’s wrong with your baby, you need to intervene right now. And when everything you do to intervene doesn’t solve it, like, like you said, at least I’m feeling totally helpful.

Shelly 26:20
And there are definitely times that I had to put my baby in the crib, where he was safe. And just take a step back and go outside, take a few breaths, call someone to come and hold him for a little bit. And that, you know, that was really hard, because it was always around in the middle of the night. But if you have someone like I happen to have someone that I could call in the middle of the night, and would come over and help me and not all people have that. But I feel like having that support system was the only thing that got me through.

Megan Dishman 26:55
Yes. Oh, absolutely. I feel like parents and moms in general, feel like they have to do it all by themselves and feel like if I can’t handle it, like I’m therefore a bad parent. And the reality is, if you have a colicky kid, like it should be all hands on deck, like calling the troops calling your support. As soon as someone mentions to you or that you think baby is colicky, that should be your sign to like text, your neighbor and your mother in law and everyone that you can think of anyone that would be willing to come help you in the wee hours of the night and say, Hey, I need help, like I’m struggling, either come during the day and let me have a nap or like, come to a shift at night. Because you cannot do this by yourself. It’s too much for one person to

Shelly 27:35
handle. Right? Right. And I teach that in my prenatal classes. I always say you know, when you’re setting up your support system, find your 2am person, who can you call or ask to come over at 2am? Who won’t hang up on you when you’re like 2am and who under you know, preferably It’s like someone else who had another kid. And so they get it and they they know what you’re going through. But it’s so important. You know, most of us parents are good at setting up the other support systems pretty well. But we never think about that person that we’re going to call in the middle of the night and everyone should have that person, whether it’s family or friend.

Megan Dishman 28:11
Oh 100% I think that’s a great idea. More postpartum prep. Yes.

Shelly 28:17
What are some other strategies that parents can use to cope with the stress and exhaustion that comes with managing a colicky baby?

Megan Dishman 28:25
I think first and foremost, it’s so important to get a break outside of the house. So even like having someone that can come to the house and be with you is awesome. But you also need to get out of the house at least an hour or two every week where you cannot hear the baby. And where are you like realize like, oh, there’s a world outside of my nursery. You know what I mean? I think that’s really important, too, is therapy, therapy and support and everything like that, because it’s not a normal motherhood experience. It’s a really a really traumatic one for a lot of women. And so having support where you can process through like my journey and my trestles looks so different than I thought, there’s a really great idea. There are like Postpartum Support groups, even like zoom meetings, where it’s like five postpartum moms get on and it’s, I think that would be a really good idea to do. Noise Cancelling Headphones, I am an advocate for those. Because if you’re gonna be with a screaming baby anyways, for hours, like make it a less stressful experience for you play some beautiful calming classical music in your ears while you hold this screaming baby. You’re there for your baby anyways, but you don’t have to necessarily experience it at full volume. And then one of the things someone told us that I thought was really helpful was getting yoga ball and bounce your baby on a yoga ball instead with colic, you’re pacing and you’re running around your house all night. And I mean, if you’re breastfeeding to like, your back just hurts all the time. And so for us getting a yoga ball that we would like hold baby on the yoga ball and bounce them. That was super helpful. It made me feel like I was resting. I don’t know but that was really helpful for us.

Shelly 30:01
Yeah, and I did the exact same thing. My son would do a little better if I sat him facing out with his back against my chest. And then I would just sit on the ball and bounce literally for hours. I had like, lots of steel back on the ball, but it was one of the few things that helps a little bit. It didn’t get him to calm down completely, but at least he wasn’t doing sometimes that my son would do that really high pitched girls that threatens to burst your eardrums, and at least he wouldn’t get that escalated. If I constantly bounced

Megan Dishman 30:35
him. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Shelly 30:38
So do you know what the statistics are in terms of how many babies are reported to have colic? And has that increased or decreased over time?

Megan Dishman 30:49
We think it’s about around 20% of babies. It hasn’t changed a ton right now. And of course, statistics are always a few years behind. But as of right now, it’s staying about the same. We do some changes of our statistics, depending on the country you’re in. So like in England and Canada, those are actually the places where you’re most prone to have a baby with colic, and places like Denmark and Italy just have lower numbers. Do I know exactly why that is? No. I mean, you can speculate all you want. But generally speaking, if parents have more support, they tend to cope with it a lot better.

Shelly 31:22
Yeah. And I wonder if it has to do with like diet in different cultures? And like you said, you could speculate but if it’s is linked to microbiome of the mother to what you eat matters, then

Megan Dishman 31:33
yeah, oh, I absolutely wonder about that, too. Like, how much time is mom’s spending in the garden and outside or if she’s spending time with pets, you know, is she eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables and, and things like that are dietary things, you know, things that have probiotics, and then regularly like yogurt and kimchi and things like that? So all good questions.

Shelly 31:55
Do you know when was the earliest reference to colic? Like how long has Colin been around that we know? I don’t know when the

Megan Dishman 32:02
earliest references, but basically, if you look throughout history, there were like natural remedies listed for forever about fussy babies and had this be because of colic. Who knows. But basically, babies have been fussy for forever. And to put this in perspective to normal babies cry around like two hours a day. That’s pretty normal, but colicky babies are those three hours plus. So it’s hard to differentiate when you’re looking historically at what was just considered normal baby fussiness and what was really in this realm of colic?

Shelly 32:35
Yeah, that makes sense. When should parents seek medical care or advice for their colleagues, like if they suspect that their baby has colic? Like, are there red flags that parents should be looking for? You talked about the signs of colic, but there’s, you know, like we said, you go to the pediatrician and they say, Well, your baby has colic. Is there anything that they should be aware of where okay, my baby has colic, but this is like not normal colic?

Megan Dishman 33:02
Yeah, so I think when if you have, like any suspicion that baby has colic, go get seen so that you can rule out a lot of the other things. Some of the things we try to rule out that can cause colicky symptoms are like a cow’s milk protein intolerance, reflex, like you mentioned, like watching for any other injury or disease obviously want to keep an eye out for things like that oversupply can cause symptoms of colic, tongue ties can kind of cause similar symptoms or under feeding, overfeeding can even cause it just because babies that is working a lot harder than normal. So all of those things are things to watch for. I say if baby has mucus in their stool, so it looks like someone sneeze into their diaper, or blood in their stool, you need to go see a pediatrician pretty soon, because those are signs of a more of an intense allergy or an intolerance. If baby is not gaining weight, well, those are signs that that’s not normal colic that something else is going on. So maybe more like the reflux route or allergies as well. Or if you’re just really concerned, like it’s never a bad thing to go see a pediatrician and ask and just have them take a look at your baby. And for us, that meant pediatrician happening a little bit to where if I saw a pediatrician, they’re like, well, good luck. We don’t like not my problem kind of thing. I was like, Okay, let me go see your colleague, because maybe they have something better to say. And that worked well for us. Actually, the next pediatrician we saw was like, Oh my gosh, let me give you some ideas. They recommended a part of biotic stress. They’re the ones who told us about, you know, try the yoga ball, or recommended, you know, try going off a dairy, see if it does anything for these days, and gave us a little bit of a structure to watch for. So if you’re finding your pediatrician is not being supportive of you at all and fun.

Shelly 34:38
Yes, 100% agree with that. What are some of the more unusual colic tricks that parents try or that you’ve heard of or read about? Yes. So

Megan Dishman 34:49
I mean, I’m sure actually I wonder if a lot of people have heard of this or tried this but the carseat on the vote drying machine or the clothes washer? Just because Then you don’t have to drive around. But you know, baby has that similar motion, outdoor time, even at night is really helpful, which I know sounds exhausting. And I, whenever I did this, I was like, I’m so tired, I just want to go to bed. But pitting the the inner wrap and walking outside was really helpful for us. There are some people who will try, like natural remedies and things, you know, like the colic drops or rice, water, fennel seed oil, things like that. There’s not a ton of data on it a little bit like fennel has a little bit of data with it, but you want to do it carefully. Obviously, don’t feed your baby, you know, a gallon of fennel. So those are some of the things that people try that I’m aware of. I think parents try everything. They sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t, or it will work for a week, and then baby moves on to the next thing.

Megan Dishman 35:46
So yeah.

Shelly 35:49
And I know there’s a lot of like old wives tales out there, too. Have you heard any of those

Megan Dishman 35:56
910? I’ve heard some things like you need to eat more eggs or random things like that, you know, but nothing that has a lot of data behind it.

Shelly 36:04
Right? Yeah. So we touched on this a little bit, but when you do go see the pediatrician? What is the process that they go through for diagnosing colic and my experience, it was eliminating all these other causes, and then settling on color? Because they had eliminated all the other causes? Is that what it typically looks like for people?

Megan Dishman 36:24
Yes, yeah, that’s exactly what it looks like. So usually, they’ll do an assessment, they’ll ask you questions about feeding and sleeping and things like that. Make sure that you’re not just like missing feeding and sleeping cues and that it’s not, you know, baby’s hungry and overtired. They’ll do an assessment to make sure that baby’s belly is not super tender, or they don’t have a really, you know, gnarly diaper rash, things like that. But yeah, if baby looks totally normal, and is well fed, and doesn’t have any other medical obvious medical diagnosis, then yeah, they just throw it under this term of colic,

Shelly 36:55
okay? Do you know if colic has any long term effects on a child’s development or health?

Megan Dishman 37:02
So as far as like behavior and things like that, no. However, they actually did a study a couple of years ago, that shows that babies who have colic are more likely to have chronic abdominal pain later in their life, and develop like abdominal diagnoses like irritable bowel syndrome, things like that. So it kind of points us to like, okay, these kids really do have a problem. Like, it’s not just they’re making this happen, they’re crying for no reason, they really do have something going on with their gut and with their bowels. So those are kind of the only things that we’ve seen so far. There’s no difference in like, how smart they are, or if they’re gonna behave better or how happy they are. But it really all just points to the

Shelly 37:37
gut. And things like those other bowel conditions that can come up later in life, do they also have a link to gut microbiome?

Megan Dishman 37:45
I think any diagnosis has a link to the gut microbiome for sure. One of the other interesting ones is that babies who have colic are more likely to have migraines as adults, which is one of the reasons why people theorize about its infant migraines. But if you look into migraines, a lot of that could also be linked to that too. So it’s hard to pinpoint it on one thing, but the gut microbiome.

Shelly 38:09
Yeah. And I know that we’ve talked about some things that parents can try. So we talked about, like the yoga ball, and the probiotics and things like that. What are some other? Like, is there specific feeding techniques, positions or changes that moms can make in their diet that will help alleviate colic symptoms other than like eliminating a food group to see if your baby is reacting to

Megan Dishman 38:32
that? Yeah, so they’re definitely like avoiding overfitting is one of the first things. So if you’re noticing that baby is spinning up a ton with it, even if they’re happy spitters or noticing like green, frothy souls, things like that. It’s definitely something to indicate Gaussian ibclc work with that make sure you’re not over feeding baby. There actually is, and I always hesitate to share this, but there is some research showing that if moms do like an Allergy Elimination Diet, they cynic that Lee significantly reduces symptoms of colic. However, this is never something I would recommend parents to just like, do on their own and like, hack their diet in half. But it’s just something to keep in mind as you’re watching baby symptoms, like are they having, you know, Lowe’s, mucousy soil and things that they need to watch for for more of the allergy side of things? And that’s just something to keep in mind.

Shelly 39:20
Yeah, and I feel like I don’t know what it’s like in your area. But in my area, it’s almost like the latest fad. Every time a family goes to the pediatrician says, Oh, my baby cries a lot. They’re like, Oh, just take dairy out of your diet and send them home with no guidance on how to do that or protect their nutrition while they’re eliminating this entire food group. Or they give misinformation to like, oh, it’s going to take like six to eight weeks for the dairy to get out of your milk, which just isn’t true. So we have a lot of these parents who are going on these really strict diet elimination. And it’s that’s not the cause of why their baby is fussy or it just doesn’t help but they feel like they have to keep doing it because they were told to do it by the pediatrician. And their health and their mental health is being impacted too. Do you feel like that happens in your area?

Megan Dishman 40:10
Oh, 100% I feel like everyone and their dog is going off of dairy. Yeah. And their breastfeeding right now. And we were told to do that, too. That’s something we tried. Because we were willing to try anything, you know what I mean? But it didn’t solve the problem for us. And really, at the end of the day, now, I was sad and tired, and I couldn’t have ice cream. So it didn’t, it didn’t solve the problem for us. It’s definitely something to look into. But again, if you’re not seeing those symptoms in their stool, then it isn’t something I would worry about. How’s milk protein intolerance is only prevalent and about, they think maybe 2% of babies. So it’s not, you know, we have 20% of babies that are colicky. Most of them are not, not impacted by dairy at all.

Shelly 40:49
Yeah, yeah. And dairy elimination is not some easy thing. It’s not just like, Oh, you just don’t drink milk or eat cheese, like dairy is and a lot of things brand things where you would not expect dairy to be?

Megan Dishman 41:02
Yes, yeah. And a lot of babies who have this cow’s milk protein intolerance, they’re sensitive to it even being on the ingredient list. So it is a full like a full elimination if you do it. And again, I would never do that without the advice of your pediatrician or even a pediatric gi specialist. It’s something that if you’re gonna do it, you don’t just like go off of it and see how it goes. Like, you go off of it, you track baby schedule, you track when baby’s having these episodes. And then a month later, they actually want you to do a trial where you try to reintroduce it. And that doesn’t look like mom eats a bunch of ice cream and then tries to breastfeed because now it’s in your breast milk for weeks. But instead like you pull some frozen milk from the freezer and introduce that to the and see if those symptoms are really still caused by it, or if it was something else and it would have faded by itself anyways.

Shelly 41:46
Okay, so we both know I’m sure that the internet is a jungle when it comes to evidence based information and the stuff that you will find out there telling parents to do to relieve their babies colic is a little nuts. So we have your accounts, your Instagram account, of course, but what are some other resources that parents can turn to for reliable information and support when dealing with a colicky baby where they can expect to get accurate evidence based information?

Megan Dishman 42:17
Yes, I really like the website called Purple crying, it talks about like these episodes of crying. And it goes into that. And I think it’s a great resource for parents to realize like this is a temporary thing, here are some things that can try. Obviously, things like Cleveland Clinic and Mayo Clinic are really good resources to look at. I also really like Seattle Children’s website, they have like every condition you could think of in pediatrics and they do a really good job. Generally speaking, if a website is trying to sell you some magical product that’s going to cure colic, like they’re trying to sell you a magical sound machine or magical swaddle. Like they’re not a reliable resource for colic because color is not caused by swaddles are resolved by smells, it’s in your gut. So that’s just an important thing to think of. As far as just like postpartum help in general. I really like Carrie loker, she does some great accounts, just information about postpartum in general. And then, yeah, just making sure that you’re using websites that are reputable and not trying to push a product on you.

Megan Dishman 43:18
Right?

Shelly 43:19
Is there a genetic component to college? have they shown that in research at all? Well, not really,

Megan Dishman 43:25
which you think there would be a little bit like maybe you’re more genetically prone to having certain, you know, a certain gut colony? But no, they haven’t shown any research for that yet?

Shelly 43:35
That’s interesting, because I would think that there would be like you said, some link within our genetics.

Megan Dishman 43:42
Yeah. And some of that I’m sure. It’s just we haven’t done enough studies to show anything. Yeah. You know, a lot of our studies are pushed through companies that are developing a product or developing a probiotic, or, or things like that. So that’s really where all of our studies come from.

Shelly 43:59
So in terms of prevention, we talked about having parents that pregnant parent take probiotics, and last for a week of pregnancy, putting the baby on probiotics, is there any other things parents can do to prevent colic from developing in their infant?

Megan Dishman 44:16
As far as studies go? No, there’s nothing that showing besides those things, you talked about, that you can do anything to prevent colic, for me who had a baby with colic, and maybe one day would want to be pregnant again, still trying to decide. But it’s something where I’m like, okay, during pregnancy, my diet needs to look like very different than it did when I was pregnant last time. Like, I don’t need to just eat ice cream and chicken nuggets, which is hard to do when you’re pregnant. And you know, you don’t feel good, and you’re nauseous all the time. But definitely making sure as far as my diet goes as a pregnant mom to include some more things that help make my gut microbiome more diverse so that I could pass it along to my baby.

Shelly 44:55
What about like fermented foods during pregnancy? Is that like you

Megan Dishman 45:00
Totally can do that. Yeah, things like the kefir or kimchi or like yogurts and things like that all totally fine.

Shelly 45:07
Are there any lifestyle factors or environmental changes that could help reduce the likelihood of I mean, other than the diet and nutrition, anything else that they could do in terms of their environment or lifestyle?

Megan Dishman 45:21
Yeah, so this is a big one for everything. But and we know it plays a role in everything, but stopping smoking or stopping being around people who smoke. We know that babies who are exposed to smoke or are prone to a million, you know, health concerns, and one of those is colic, too. So knocking around smoking, people who had a really good support partner during pregnancy are also less likely to have babies with colic. And some of that may just be like an error due to reporting like if you felt more supported, you didn’t report it to your pediatrician. But that’s definitely that’s something to keep in mind is like when you’re pregnant, do I have someone with me that’s going to be able to support me after I have this baby? And if not, how can I build a community of people that will help me postpartum?

Shelly 46:03
Have you seen any research that links caffeine intake to colic?

Megan Dishman 46:07
I haven’t. I haven’t seen anything on that yet. Because I know

Shelly 46:10
there’s some research showing it can make reflex worse. But again, reflux and colic are not not the same thing.

Megan Dishman 46:18
I mean, I don’t think it’s necessarily like if your baby’s up crying all night. Anyways, I don’t think adding caffeine would be the solution. I think it would be a good thing to pull out. But yeah, we don’t have any like really straightforward research on it, showing that it causes or impacts colic.

Shelly 46:33
And have you? And maybe this is like your own personal story, or a family that you worked with. Can you share some success stories of parents who have effectively managed colic in their babies and how they did it?

Megan Dishman 46:46
Yeah, so for us at least what end of that one, it just takes time. So for us, when we found that our baby was colicky, and we were trying all of these things, we went off dairy, we tried to probiotics. I took every course in the world on baby sleep and things like that, you know, taking care of babies, and sleep fairy and all of the things like that. And at the end of the day, the thing that ended up working was time, and support. And so you can throw all of these things, these interventions in there. And for sure, get your baby on probiotics and try those things so that you can reduce the crime time. But at the end of the day, what you need to support more than anything. For myself when our baby was super colicky. The best thing that I could do was I finally reached out to help I like, had an appointment with my nurse midwife and bawled my eyes out. And I was like, I can’t do this for like three more hours. Like, I feel like I’m gonna die. And they were like, they were the sweetest ladies ever. They were like, Oh, my gosh, join this therapy group, like, let’s help you. For me, I had really bad postpartum anxiety with it, understandably so. And they’re like, let’s get you on medications. Like, you don’t need to be suffering the way that you are. And they recommended a lot of things that just like, gave me support to not spend 24/7 with a screaming baby. So like, for us going to the gym and doing gym, Kid Care was really helpful. Having my mother in law, watch our baby, all of those things are really important. There’s not some magic wand solution that I can say is going to cure your baby colic, but I love to give Parent Resources and education so that they know what to watch for what they can try. And to know like you’re not alone in this and you you’re supposed to get help during this time.

Shelly 48:22
I love that. And I found this support groups to be really helpful too. And I remember one time going to a support group and the woman next to me, it was a two hour long support group and her baby screamed the whole time. And I felt so bad for her. But at the same time, I felt so much better. Like I’m not the only one going through this. So it just kind of validated that for me. I will also say that putting my baby in the car and driving around at 2am ended up drastically reducing the crying time a little bit closer to the end. So maybe instead of screaming for three hours, he only screamed for like 45 minutes to an hour which to me was a win, but I was you know the crazily driving around the neighborhood at 2am

Megan Dishman 49:08
I mean, if it works at work

Shelly 49:10
then the other thing that ended up working really well with Eminem if I played

Shelly 49:20
oh my god giggling playing it for him and thinking I’m ruining my beams

Megan Dishman 49:29
not Mozart. Same thing if it works out works okay, like you’re desperate Avenham is the solution to our problems.

Shelly 49:39
I think you know you can find that one thing that really works and it might be something weird, but we don’t second guess it works.

Megan Dishman 49:49
I felt like that was all the time. Like if she finally fell asleep I was like okay, okay, like, how many clicks up like what volume was it sound machine at? We were wearing these jammies is like I put her to bed this specific week would know, it was like, you know, she just like, try everything. So oh, I should have added evidence to my list. I didn’t know that, actually.

Shelly 50:16
You can put it on your website. Yeah. He’s early works because. And it’s hard. And I think I think it’s really important for parents to know, like you said that they’re not alone. And you may not be able to change the way your baby behaves, and stop your baby from crying. But like you said, if you feel supported, if you’re taking care of yourself in all the other ways, you’ll be able to handle that crying much better than if you’re not

Megan Dishman 50:47
100%. And one of the things I always love to recommend to parents is something called crisis or freeze. So in a lot of states, in the United States, they have something called crisis nurseries, where they’re just like free childcare for a few hours every week, where if you are like at the end of your rope, and you just can’t do it for a minute longer, or if you, you know, you have a work conflict, or you know, a doctor’s point you need to go to, or you have a job interview, they’re a great resource, you go, you drop off your baby for a few hours, and it’s run by the government. So it’s people who’ve had background checks. And they just understand that, like, parents can’t do it all by themselves. And sometimes you cannot handle a screaming baby for 10 more minutes. And instead of getting upset at your baby, like and suffering at home, I’m taking them to a safe place and go, go eat a smoothie in your car instead. And go to Starbucks. Yeah, exactly. Drive away for a little bit, and then come back when you’re ready to him a little a little more, that that is such a great resource, because I remember in those moments, feeling like there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck doing this for the next 100 million hours. I’m so tired. And I literally feel like I can’t do it anymore. But I have to write and so having that resource in the back of your mind, like if I am hitting an enemy rope, there is an option. There’s something I can try right now.

Shelly 52:00
Yeah, and I do remember kind of getting when I was experiencing my son’s colic, you kind of get stuck in tunnel vision where you start to picture that, oh, this is going to be the rest of my life. And you can’t think beyond your current situation, which in some ways, like, yeah, you’re taking it one minute at a time, one day at a time. But you get kind of stuck into feeling like, I’m going to have to do this forever. And it helps to like talk to other families whose babies have already outgrown it, they can see no, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. There are no college kids who are screaming, maybe maybe during finals week. They’re crying for hours a day. But you know, there’s no college kids who are walking around with colic. And I remember what something else that really helps me was during the day because I would be so sleep deprived. And I would just want to I would just need like a mental break. We belong to the why. And they had that to our you know, you they bought your kids while you worked out for a couple hours, I would put on all my workout clothes, take my kids to the why check them into the child watch. And then I go to the locker room and read a book for

Megan Dishman 53:07
Yes, yes. The same thing, Shelly, I’d like go sit on a yoga mat on my phone and be like this is working out.

Shelly 53:17
Like I’m not working out right now is up for three hours. But I will read a book and yeah, you need the break, you really do some creative ways. And if you do have a friend who gets it, you know, when your baby is crying a lot, you do want to leave them in the hands of someone who can handle that appropriately. But once you find that person, like take advantage, like definitely do

Megan Dishman 53:41
that. 100% 100%

Shelly 53:44
What is some final advice that you would want to give to parents who are currently dealing with a colicky infant or you know, the top thing that you would want parents to know.

Megan Dishman 53:54
I think that it like you said that it adds for us. I mean, our daughter is happiest can be now she’s so fun, like motherhood is an enjoyable experience where we now we have come so far she sleeps normal, she sleeps through the night, she takes her naps during the day like colic is not going to define your baby forever. And it’s not going to define your motherhood experience forever. For me, I think that I felt like such a bad mom during this stage. But I came to this realization that like, you know, there are other stages of motherhood, where I’m going to thrive, like I’m going to be an amazing craft mom and an outdoor mom. And these three to four months of colic are just not it for me. But that doesn’t mean that motherhood is not it for me. So I think that was really important to realize for me, and to realize that my relationship with my baby was one day going to be totally different. And it would be defined by those snuggles and happy moments and giggling and, you know, playfulness, and obviously there’s still time for tantrums in there like she’s still a kid, but it is so much more manageable and I don’t have to let that colicky experience define I my motherhood journey.

Shelly 55:01
I love that 100% agree. And that was my experience as well. My son is older, he’s 13 Now, but once he grew out of his colic, he was like, my easiest baby, so calm and chill. And even to this day, like, he doesn’t have a mean bone in his body. He’s so sweet and kind. So I was probably most worried about him kind of, well, maybe he’s like, Oh, is this kid gonna be a jerk when he’s really high maintenance. I really think he got it all out of his system when he was a baby. So we’re gonna

Megan Dishman 55:33
write, they’ll make up for it, they will. And that’s so hard to hear. When you’re in the moment, like, like you said, you get that tunnel vision. That’s all you see. But it really does. And like it really is temporary. So while you’re going through it, just you know, bring all that support system close to you, and get through it until you get out the other side. And everything’s wonderful.

Shelly 55:54
Love it. Where can parents find you if they want to connect with you and learn more about you?

Megan Dishman 56:00
So I’m on Instagram at the college nurse, you’re welcome to message me there. If you have any questions or want to share your story with me, I would love to hear your colleagues story. Sometimes we all just need validation. So you’re welcome to see me over there. And I hope to hear from some of your

Megan Dishman 56:15
some of your listeners.

Shelly 56:17
Thank you so much, again, for jumping on and talking to us about this topic today. It’s been great. It’s nice to know that there are accounts like yours who are staying on top of that research and sharing it with families because as you know, a lot of families aren’t getting those resources, even through their pediatricians. Their pediatricians may not be up to date on that research. So it’s really fascinating to hear you share those facts that you have discovered about the gut microbiome and and all those things taking the probiotics and the last four weeks of pregnancy. That’s stuff that I didn’t know. So I’m definitely going to be writing that down sharing it with the families that I work with as well. So thank you so much.

Megan Dishman 56:53
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Shelly. It’s a pleasure and it was nice to talk to you.

Shelly 57:02
Thank you for joining us this week on the Baby Pro podcast. Make sure to visit our website ShellyTaft ibclc.com where you can check out more options for support to pregnancy and beyond, including the baby probes group, our parenting community. You can also follow us on social media at ShellyTaftICLC on Instagram. If you love the show, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes to help our episodes reach more parents like you. Thanks for listening