In this episode of The Baby Pro Podcast, Phoebe Heffron, a pediatric nurse practitioner and aspiring IBCLC, talks about extended or biological nursing. She also shared the benefits of nursing into toddlerhood as well as cultural differences in breastfeeding practices, weaning, and common arguments against extended breastfeeding. The discussion also emphasizes the importance of doing what works best for the individual family and not letting others’ opinions influence their decisions.

In this episode, you will learn the following:

1. The nursing customs of other countries and how they differ from those of the United States.
2. Positive effects of prolonged nursing.
3. Setting smaller goals and taking breastfeeding one day at a time rather than focusing on the overall picture.

Connect with Shelly: 

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/shellytaftibclc/

Website: Massachusetts IBCLC | Lactation Consultant – Shelly Taft

The Truth About Extended Breastfeeding: A Conversation with Phoebe Heffron

Baby Pro Podcast Episode Transcript

Phoebe  00:00

having smaller goals is really helpful. Like, I don’t think if I had started breastfeeding my first and felt like I’m gonna feed him till almost two years like I don’t, I feel like that would have felt overwhelming. But just as our as our journey progressed and evolved, it just felt like that was right for us. And I think that it’s important to just kind of take it one day at a time and set smaller goals and kind of be in the moment and not look too far ahead at the big picture.

Shelly  00:29

Hi, I’m Shelly. And I’m Maria. And you’re listening to the baby pro podcast, where we talk about everything in anything related to pregnancy and through the first year of your child’s life. Every episode we will discuss an interview experts and all the answers to the questions expectant and new parents want to know, such as creating the perfect birth plan, infant sleep, and tips and tricks for parenting a newborn, and welcome to the show.

Shelly  00:52

Hey, friends, it’s Shelly and bird today is just going to be me because the wonderful Maria is on vacation with her daughter, Morgan. And she doesn’t have internet access where she is. 

Shelly  01:06

So I wanted to start off with just some housekeeping announcements. So we have our virtual breastfeeding class and our virtual newborn classes, our virtual breastfeeding class. Our next one is Thursday, May 4. And for our virtual newborn care class, our next class is Thursday, May 11. And both of those prenatal breastfeeding class starts at 630 and runs until about nine. And our newborn care class starts at 6pm and runs till 8pm. And those are EST times. So both those classes are virtual, but they are live. So they’re not a pre recorded class. So you join, you can ask questions as you go through the class. And both those classes are taught by the wonderful Maria. So if you’re interested in taking those classes, you can sign up on our website, Shelleytaftibclc.com. And we hold both those classes once a month. 

Shelly  02:03

We also have our upcoming feed infant feeding support group for those who are local tasks. That meeting is the second Thursday of the month from 10am to 12pm. At our office in Worcester, so again, this is a free support group. Or if you are a bottle feeding breastfeeding, combo feeding, however, you’re feeding your baby, and it is 10am to 12pm on the second Thursday of the month at our office in Vista. 

Shelly  02:32

Okay, so now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, I wanted to talk about a an article that I stumbled across, and it’s about the Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital in Michigan. Now they had back in back in 2017, their C section rate was 26.8%, which is lower than the national average C section rate of 32%. But is higher than the recommended C section weight rate by the World Health Organization. So they started this initiative to reduce it C section rates. And basically the things that they started doing was they introduced midwifery services for their low risk patients. They started offering education support to their patients like educational materials, classes, workshops on natural birthing techniques, and pain management. They started to encourage feedbacks, vaginal birth after a C section, and they took measures to improve communication between the health care providers and the patients. And they also work to really reduce early inductions and elective C sections. So based on those efforts, their C section rates dropped from 26.8% to 17.8% in just one year. So this is a great example, that this can be done and you can reach those World Health Organization goals have a lower C section rate. If you take the time and you put in the money and you put in the energy, and you put in the training of the staff to do it. So kudos to the Henry Ford, West Bloomfield Hospital and Michigan and I hope to see other hospitals taking the same measures to reduce C section rates. 

Shelly  04:26

And now let’s do our question of the week. This week’s question was submitted through Instagram. And the question is my 14 week old started to randomly disliked bottles and I’m wondering why so this can happen. 

Shelly  04:41

And I know Maria and I have talked about this before on the podcast but a lot of times when I’m working with a bottle of baby who’s refusing the bottle is a three or four month old baby. Occasionally I’ll get babies who are younger than three or four months but typically if I am doing about a consult the baby’s a little bit older that three to four month And why, right? Because this is the question that I get from parents, like most of the time, the baby was taking a bottle just fine. And then all of a sudden, something changed, and they started to refuse the bottle. And why does that seem to happen? Around that three month mark? Well, it’s because babies are born with a second reflex. And that reflex starts to go away at around ish, three months old. So if your baby had preferences, if they had dyslexic, maybe they didn’t like the nipple on the bottle that much, they’re sucking reflex kind of overrode their desires and would get them to suck on the nipple. Anyway, that’s like a reflex goes away around three months. So all of a sudden, babies have more say, of what they want to suck in. So you can have a baby that takes a bottle pretty easily. And then all of a sudden, they don’t take a bottle. And a lot of times, I’ll see this when parents take a break from bottles, and let several weeks go by without offering the bottle. So now my recommendations when parents are working with babies who are feeding difficulties, especially if they have like high palates or tongue ties, is don’t let weeks and weeks go by without offering a bottle. At the very minimum, we want to be offering a bottle at least twice a week just to remind your baby, that food comes from the bottle too. And it doesn’t have to replace the feeding, you can offer just a small snack and between breastfeeding sessions like a half an ounce to an ounce in the bottle. Just to remind maybe like, hey, bottles are cool, too. You can get a bottle alarm away from you and still be fed. So if your baby is having trouble taking a bottle, if once you get them to start taking the bottle again, don’t take any breaks, at least offer the bottle pretty regularly. If you cannot get them to take the bottle again. Then definitely book a bottle console with a bottle savy ibclc thanks for that question this week. And if you have a question that you want me and Maria to answer on the podcast, you can message me over at in on Instagram at Shelly taft ibclc. 

Shelly  07:11

And this week, we are going to be talking all about extended or biological nursing, which is nursing into toddlerhood. Now, I did this with my children, my two oldest nursed until they were past two years old. And main, that’s nurse until he was three. And a lot of people can find this shocking, but we’re going to talk about all the benefits and realistically, what our babies how long our babies were meant to nurse for. And that is coming up. Recently, the American Academy of Pediatrics updated their breastfeeding guidelines so that it states that breastfeeding for two years is recommended. And beyond that as long as baby and child would like. And I know that stirred up a lot of thoughts and feelings for a lot of parents out there who had success with breastfeeding or who struggle with breastfeeding on both ends. And a lot of questions were being thrown around like why nurse of the past year old nevermind past two or a past three. 

Shelly  08:19

But there are benefits to extended or biological nursing and today we are talking with Phoebe all about that Phoebe is a pediatric nurse practitioner and an aspiring ibclc. She has four children between the ages of five and 11. When she’s not supporting lactation clients, Phoebe enjoys volunteering and a therapeutic horseback riding program is an avid fan and her children’s various athletic pursuits. She likes to read big and she loves spending time and traveling with her family.

Shelly  08:52

Hi Phoebe, how are you? I’m good. How are you?

Shelly  08:56

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure.

Phoebe  08:59

I have been a pediatric nurse practitioner for about 13 years. And about five years ago, decided I wanted to start my journey towards becoming a lactation consultant. After having breastfeed all breastfed all four of my children. So when about starting my studying and did a CLC D course to become a lactation counselor. And then continued my coursework and did an internship to become an ibclc just sat for my boards.

Shelly  09:41

So what made you when you were pregnant with your first what made you kind of decide like I’m going to breastfeed?

Phoebe  09:49

I guess it wasn’t ever something I really thought thought that much about it was just I always assumed that I would breastfeed my children. My mom had breastfed my sisters and me and my I guess I’ve always sort of had a more natural, holistic, like idea about how I wanted to raise my children. And so just, I never really considered other alternatives. It was just my plan from from day one. 

Shelly  10:15

So it always kind of fit into your family values.

Phoebe  10:19

Exactly. And my husband was on board. So never, never really a source of ambiguity for us in our parenting journey.

Shelly  10:30

I love that. I remember when I was pregnant with with Brooke, I didn’t even think about it. And I know to you, that must seem weird, because it was just like, Well, duh, of course, we’re gonna breastfeed. But to me, I didn’t even put any thought of it until actually my hairdresser was like, Oh, are you gonna breastfeed? And I was like, Oh, I don’t know, I guess. And then she started the wheels tourney, when you got pregnant with your first What was your goal for breastfeeding? Like, how long did you plan on breastfeeding?

Phoebe  10:57

I guess having gone through nursing school, I had sort of like the AAP recommendations kind of reined in me that a&p with AAP recommended exclusive breastfeeding until six months then introduction of complementary foods, and then breastfeeding until a year as at the point that was at that time, that was the recommendation to a year. And I just sort of figured I would I would do that and kind of see how it didn’t how it was going and take it from there.

Shelly  11:27

And did you have any struggles with breastfeeding, ie any of your kids?

Phoebe  11:31

I really didn’t. For me, the probably the biggest challenge was pumping. Just I really didn’t enjoy pumping. And when my oldest was four months, that’s when I went back to work. And I was working in a very busy pediatric practice. So it was just really hard to fit in the time to pump at work.

Shelly  11:52

And how long did you breastfeed your first?

Phoebe  11:55

I guess my first until he was about 22 months old. 

Shelly  11:59

Okay, so you almost made it to two years.

Phoebe  12:01

I did. I had my second child when my first was about 19 months. And just decided to continue with that continue through my pregnancy continue at that point. And then it just kind of felt like the time was right to wean him.

Shelly  12:18

Was it easy to wean him?

Phoebe  12:21

I think there was a lot of anticipation and dread about the process. But it was not as bad as I expected it would be

Shelly  12:28

I think that happens a lot. Like we’re like, oh my gosh, how am I going to do this? And then you’re just like, Okay, we’re kind of done nursing and the toddler’s like, okay. Okay.

Phoebe  12:38

Yes, I think that we do kind of build it up in our heads to be this whole big, scary thing. And some kids, of course, are more challenging, and more. And some are more adaptable. And we just my husband, and I just kind of came up with a plan. And we stuck to the plan. And it worked. And it was much easier than we anticipated. It would be

Shelly  13:01

nice.

Shelly  13:03

So you had mentioned like the AP guidelines, can you tell us a little bit about what those guidelines look like now.

Phoebe  13:08

So just in the last six months or a year or so the AP has changed that upper limit, I get not limited but upper end of their recommendation. So they still recommend exclusive breastfeeding until six months. And then introduction of complementary foods. And now they have changed the what used to be one year to two years. They say continued breastfeeding till two years, as long as it’s mutually desired by both mom and baby.

Shelly  13:38

So it’s kind of like the American Academy of Pediatrics caught up to what the World Health Organization has been advising for years, ever since. In this field.

Phoebe  13:49

Yeah, exactly. That’s been the WHO recommendation for a long time and the AAP just caught on.

Shelly  13:56

Can you talk a little bit about what why it looks different or what looks different in the US when it comes to how long we breastfeed versus the rest of the world.

Phoebe  14:08

Yeah, breastfeeding United States is very different from lots of other places in the world for a variety of reasons. But several of those are around Return to Work expectations and workplace environments. So in United States, many people return to work at about 12 weeks some some return even earlier. Some parents have to return to work after two weeks, some breastfeeding parents have to return it at two weeks. Some it’s six to eight weeks, but another lots of other places around the world. Parents have a year or even 18 months of parental leave. And so there’s a lot that goes along with that just as far as stress, logistics like I talked about my challenge of finding time in my busy work day to breath to pump many workplaces that are not very, very very supportive of parents who need to pump they don’t, some have private pumping rooms, some don’t. Some parents talk about having to pump in bathrooms, some have offices where they can shut doors others don’t. So that can be really challenging. And just along with our expectation that work that parents who returned to work, though earliest, just this sort of general sort of societal expectation that there’s just not a lot of support for working parents, it’s really hard in the United States to be a working parent, period, and especially during those first few months when if you are breastfeeding and need to be taking care of an infant, as well.

Shelly  15:40

I totally agree. And that I think, was part of the uproar when the AAP updated their guidelines to say no, you should breastfeed for two years. How, right because where’s the policy change that’s going in the legislation that’s going to allow that to happen? Because you and I live in Massachusetts, where we do have paid maternity and paternity leave up to 12 weeks, is it 12 weeks or 16 weeks I having a brain fart right now, I think 12 Right, and that and that’s like a state legislative thing. But anywhere else in the country, if those state laws aren’t in place, it’s just not going to happen. 

Shelly  16:19

And I have met a lot of families, especially in the medical field, like residents, who do have to go back after two weeks. And if you are a high school student, you are expected to be back in class in two weeks, and I can’t. I feel so bad for these parents. I cannot imagine, you know, especially if you had a C section. That’s like major abdominal surgery. So you’re bleeding out of your vagina, you possibly have this like surgical incision that’s healing on your abdomen. Your breasts are leaking milk, your nipples might be cracked and bleeding depending on how breastfeeding is going and you’re way retired. Two weeks is not long enough to recover from the birth, even a vaginal birth and you’re expected to be in class or at work. No wonder why are breastfeeding rates are so dismal. And what makes me really sad about the US is our initiation rates are high like most of our parents do start off breastfeeding. But the farther you get along three weeks, it drops six weeks it drops. And then three months it significantly drops. Because again, that’s when most people have to go back to work, and they can’t figure out the pumping. And they don’t have those protections in place.

Phoebe  17:33

Yeah, I mean, you brought up a lot of good points. Like, I think the first thing you mentioned about the AAP recommendations is I think that it was well intended, but the way it was received, I think that mean, I think that there’s so much you know, mom guilt, that people experience that when you see like, oh, we recommend you continue breastfeeding two years. And that’s just another thing that that breastfeeding parents take on like, Oh, I’m supposed to continue till two years, like, how am I supposed to do that, but just the logistics, and like you said that the policies, they’re just not in place to make that a reality for most families. There are some cultures around the world where birthing parents aren’t even supposed to leave their room for a month while they recover so that the idea of having to be back at school or work within the first couple of weeks is just it’s mind boggling.

Shelly  18:26

Right? And so for failing in the US like to hear originally, like you should you should breastfeed for a year, that alone can seem really daunting and overwhelming and hard. And then now to hear oh, nevermind, we want you to breastfeed for two years. A lot of parents got quite angry at that. And their feelings are valid, because how can you put these expectations on these families without the support systems? And so when you I think when you talk to people in the US about like how long babies should be breastfed, or how long babies breastfeed just in general, our viewpoint is very different from the rest of the world. Would you agree with that?

Phoebe  19:10

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I also think that sometimes people just don’t, don’t know where to go for support that there might be support out there that could help them towards their goals, if they intend to continue breastfeeding longer if they do have to go back to work early, and they want to have a plan in place, but they just don’t know where to go for support.

Shelly  19:31

And so there’s a term for if you are breastfeeding past a year or in there were for some people past two years, and we call it extended nursing. But some people feel like we shouldn’t use that term extend. Do you remember learning about this a few years ago, that we shouldn’t do term extended nursing, we should use the term biological nursing because you know, language matters. And if you walk around saying extended nursing, it makes it sound like you’re nursing them past the time that And it was meant that our species were meant to nurse our young. Whereas if you go to other parts of the world where breastfeeding is in their culture, and they have the paid maternity leave, no one bats an eye at someone breastfeeding, like a two year old or a three year old, whereas here, it’d be like, Wow, you’re still nursing. You’re still nursing? Yeah. Because not too many people do it, because we don’t have those support systems in place.

Phoebe  20:23

Absolutely. And lots of other places around the world. It’s totally normal to be to be breastfeeding an older child. And it’s just here, it’s your outside the norm, if that’s what you do. And I do think you’re right, that terminology extended can be harmful, because? Because it does kind of give it this negative connotation.

Shelly  20:48

Yeah. And I think when I teach my breastfeeding classes, I always bring up, you know, because one of the questions we go over is, how long should you best be now is bringing up the worldwide average, is, you know, the range is three to seven years with most babies nursing until they’re four years old. And it blows, the parents might like they, they can never imagine nursing a four year old, nevermind, you know, a seven year old to in some cases, they’re still nursing data. And that that to be true, too.

Phoebe  21:17

Yeah, I think that goes hand in hand with the comment made earlier about breastfeeding initiation rates are very high here. And just because of the support that, that you get to two months out three months out, like they drop off pretty precipitously. And so I think that people have those statistics in mind. And it just, they can’t comprehend that around the world. That’s not the norm. It’s just what’s the norm here in our in our, in our society, right?

Shelly  21:47

So as someone who did biological nursing or extended nursing, whatever you prefer to call it, tell us a little bit about what your journey looked like. Because a lot of people when they hear like, Oh, your two year old school nurse aide, they’re picturing like, you’re putting your two year old to the breast every two to three hours. And it doesn’t look like that like breastfeeding a toddler. It looks very different than breastfeeding a newborn. Can you talk a little bit about that and your experience around that?

Phoebe  22:11

Sure. Yeah, I mean, breastfeeding and toddler is, is very different from breastfeeding and newborn. Once once the baby is over a year, they’re getting a lot more of their calories and nutrition from table foods, and so they don’t rely on of course, the breast milk is still is packed full of nutrients for them. But it’s not their primary source of calories at that point for most most toddlers. So they don’t need to nurse as often they don’t need to take in as much volume is of breast milk. But it can be a really useful tool for comforting a child if they get injured, if they’re experiencing big emotions, or just helping them with emotional regulation. And so a toddler may be playing, they may come over to kind of check in and to have that moment of connection. And they may want to nurse it’s usually very brief. If they do that. And they kind of go back to their planning. 

Phoebe  23:10

So it’s not like you’re stuck on the couch breastfeeding for 30 minutes, every two or three hours like you would be with a newborn, it’s now they can kind of do it on the go. It doesn’t have to necessarily be in you know, same position with specific pillows to get the proper position, they might do it standing up, they might do it and like hanging on you upside down. It’s just sort of part of their day. And it’s just like a little moment here and a little moment there. And sometimes they just need that connection. Yeah, for me, like when I continued nursing, my oldest after my second was born, it felt like a good way for us to continue to have that bonding when he he was used to getting all the attention from us before his sibling came along. And just to kind of be able to reassure him that he we still had that bond, even though he was not the only only child in the house anymore. It just felt really special to be able to continue to have that connection with him. 

Shelly  24:07

And did you nursed him throughout the entire pregnancy and kept going or did he stop and then ask to nurse again after your second arrived?

Phoebe  24:14

He continued through the whole pregnancy he did didn’t never seem to notice any decrease in supply never seem to notice any change in taste. Or if you didn’t notice it never seemed to affect his nursing behaviors.

Shelly  24:28

Yeah, and I love that you brought up the fact that it’s it’s becomes more like a parenting tool, right? Because the beginning breastfeeding so stressful and you’re just focused on feeding your baby and getting your baby to gain appropriately and making sure that you know your baby’s peeing and pooping enough but as the baby gets older, it does really become useful for so many things. 

Shelly  24:47

And for us, it was just like with you it was like the boob solves everything. It sounds anything if you had a boo boo, put the boob in the mouth and it would be fine. And the same thing As my oldest when, when they would start to have tantrums, I could end the tantrum very quickly just by saying, Hey, you want to nurse or my house, we call that non US. So we say no, do you want manners? And they would briefly nurse and be like, okay, all better now. So like you said, with the emotional regulation, and in fact, when I got pregnant with my second, my first self Wait, I had, I was all excited about tandem nursing them. And as soon as the supply dropped, Burke was like, Yeah, I’m all set. And I wasn’t ready. So I remember being like, Are you sure? Are you sure. And then they had a tantrum. And I was like, I don’t know what to do. Because usually just put the boob in your mouth, and that stops. So it really becomes like the magic, everything. But and then as the baby, you know, as, as my kids got older, it was less and less and less about the food, and more and more about the closest and the contact and that and the comfort. 

Phoebe  25:58

Absolutely. Yeah, can really be I mean, it can really alleviate any stressful situation for a child who is used to having that moment of connection to just be able to have that one or two minutes of time.

Shelly  26:14

So when you are nearing the end of your nursing relationship with your first at that point, how many times a day was he nursing?

Phoebe  26:23

he was probably nursing like, maybe three or four times a day, just briefly, he was still getting up overnight to nurse, maybe like once overnight, and then probably like once in the morning once before nap, and once before bed. And they were they were usually pretty brief. It was not like he was nursing for a long period of time.

Shelly  26:45

Right. And I remember that with my kids to when they were toddlers, they were basically just nurse to go to sleep like nurse at nap time and bedtime, and maybe in the morning. And that was it wasn’t like suffer. They got a boo boo or something like that. 

Phoebe  26:59

Yeah, that was pretty much similar to our situation.

Shelly  27:01

Yeah, yeah. And how easy was it to wean him when you were ready.

Phoebe  27:06

It was relatively easy. I mean, it was primarily at those. Like before sleep times, we just looked at my husband’s work schedule, found a stretch of like five days in a row where he was either, like, off at bedtime, so he’d be able to just do bedtime. And we kind of just pick based on what was convenient for him to do the nighttime routine. And the first probably one or two days are hard. And then after that, it was kind of he was on my kick was on to the next thing and was over it was not as bad as I was expecting them. 

Shelly  27:44

For some toddlers, you have to get like a little more creative. I’ve had some families throw weaning party for their older babies or toddlers, where you celebrate, you know, you pick a day and you say, Okay, after this day, you’re not going to nurse anymore, and you have a party with maybe like a boob cake or something No, no. And celebrate the fact that you know, they’re a big kid and don’t need that to nurse anymore. But oftentimes, you’re still like, for example, you said that your first was still waking up once a night and a lot of times people think I’m gonna wean because I don’t want to wake up at night anymore without realizing that that might not be they’re not waking up because they’re hungry at that age, they’re waking up because they need you. And so if you did decide to wean at that point, you would still be you know, your child will still be waking you up and you’re have to replace the nursing with something that gives him gives them that connection and that comfort and that sense of safety. 

Phoebe  28:42

Yes, absolutely. And I think what we did is that my husband slept in his room with him and so when he did we pick up my husband was there to calm him and I think for him just having a one on one time with my husband was also like special to him not having to share him was just just the two of them. And so he was able to kind of diffuse any any big feelings pretty easily just by being there and and comforting him

Shelly  29:09

Yeah, I love that. So what about with your second? 

Phoebe  29:13

my second II probably weaned when he was about probably about 20s six months or so. So a little bit longer he a little bit longer he and my third child are 21 and a half months apart. Maybe it was closer to like 20 Maybe it’s closer to two years it was a little bit longer than my than my first but she also nurse all through my pregnancy with my my third and again no change in nursing behaviors with any you know change in taste or change in in supply or flow like he just continued nursing all along. And pretty much the same thing. I just continued to nurse him for several months. She was born and then decided we were ready. And that I would say the weaning process was pretty similar to with my oldest my anticipation and and worry on my part but went pretty smoothly.

Shelly  30:14

Nice. And then your your other kids what about about them?

Phoebe  30:18

So my daughter and my youngest are two and a half years apart and she probably nursed until she was 29 or 30 months. I sort of thought I would nurse her a little bit longer. No, I know she waited around 29 or 30 months, but she sort of simultaneously potty trained. And I was kind of hoping to hold off on the potty training a little bit longer. No, I’m I’m totally saying that she was probably like 32 months, I was hoping to hold off on the potty training a little bit longer, because I had planned to wean her around that time. And I didn’t really want her to have these big transitions at the same time. But she just she she decided to with potty training. That was it. So it all kind of happened at one she’s got that

Shelly  31:08

So with each kid, you’ve gone a little bit longer a little bit longer before weaning, what about your last?

Phoebe  31:16

My last I went longer than any of the others he weaned when he was about four years and four months. Wow. And that was not really my intention. Like I always sort of thought I weaned him between two and a half and three years like I had with my daughter. But because of the pandemic, my plan sort of changed. He was probably the most attached to breastfeeding and out of any of my children. And I knew it was gonna be hard to wean him. And once we were in lockdown, and we were home all the time, I just thought to myself like there’s, there’s no way I’m going to be able to do this. Like it’s just, there’s just no way I can, I’m gonna get him to wean. And so we just kind of continued I didn’t I guess I didn’t really feel a rush to wean him I was at the time home full time with the kids. My husband was working a lot and was not maybe as available to be on all hands on deck for helping with the bedtime. And but he was I mean up until he weaned at over four years waking up multiple times a night to nurse. So I knew he was going to be the hardest. And because the pandemic and I was able to get vaccinated much earlier. So I kind of thought, well, I’ll just keep nursing because he’s getting antibodies from me from my COVID vaccines, and there’s only so much distraction I can offer him he was nursing more times throughout the day than any of my other children were when they weaned as well. And so I just waited until we were able to get more out in the world and have more opportunities to distract him.

Shelly  33:02

But it never really goes quite how you expect it right. It totally. I mean, I was not that attached to breastfeeding to begin with, until someone asked me that question. I was like, Oh, I guess I better research it. And then I did and I was like, Yes, this is what I want to do. But I remember thinking like, Okay, I want to try to make it to a year I want to try and then once the year hit, it was like such an like an integral part of our life. I couldn’t imagine just like taking it away just because they hit a certain age like Happy Birthday. Now you don’t get this thing that has offered you nutrition and immunities and comfort. Too bad. So sad. Like yeah, you just kind of like keep going because like, Well, why not? It’s working and it’s working really well for us. So why not keep going?

Phoebe  33:52

Yes, absolutely. And I think that having like, especially when you’re starting out your breastfeeding journey, having smaller goals is really helpful. Like I don’t think if I had started breastfeeding my first and thought like I’m gonna feed him till almost two years like I don’t I feel like that would have felt overwhelming. But just as our as our journey progressed and evolved it just felt like that was right for us. And I think that it’s important to just kind of take it one day at a time and set smaller goals and kind of be in the moment and not look too far ahead at the big picture because I think it can be overwhelming

Shelly  34:28

Yeah, I agree and I think you know even if you do have that goal of like okay, I want to make a two year any major goal that you have you want to break down into smaller more attainable goals. And so that’s definitely to say okay, my ultimate goals a year but I’m gonna try for the first model. Make it two months to one question I had for you is Did you get any negative feedback or flak about breastfeeding past fear from family, friends, strangers? Will you still nursing your kids in public once they were over a year are you only doing it? Well, some of your kids, you weren’t going anywhere because it was a pandemic. 

Phoebe  35:06

I absolutely nurse my first three in public like when they were toddlers, I, I was never very modest about that like it really from early on. I did not shy away from breastfeeding in public. And even as they were toddlers, I guess it never felt strange to me to breastfeed a toddler in public because it was just our norm at home. It just felt like we’re doing our thing. And we just happen to be out. I probably got some strange looks like no one ever said anything to me publicly. I did get the occasional i Oh, you’re still nursing from friends. Probably occasionally family members too. But I honestly just kind of brushed it off, I never really gave too much weight to what they were saying this was our journey. And I wasn’t really going to let anyone else kind of assert their opinions. And, you know, make me think there was there was anything we were doing that was not, you know, the biological norm or that was strange or unexpected. It was just how things were going for us. And that was, that was the way we did it and just wouldn’t bother me.

Shelly  36:17

Love that. Yeah. I think when I was nursing past the year, I think my friends and families knew better, but to say anything to me at that point I had learned, you know, I didn’t actually breastfeed in public too often, once they’re past the year because we were homeschooling and we were going places and it was like, go, go, go go a lot. But I do remember that I went over another couple’s house, it was one of those situations where my husband at the time was friends with that guy, and they wanted us wives to meet, you know, like when the husbands are sending the wives up on a date. And so she had a very young baby. And I think my for oldest was about 15 months old. And we were sitting on the kitchen floor, playing with the kids. And Brooke just came over and curled up in my lap and asked her so I started nursing her. And after and I’m talking to this other mom the whole time. And Brooke was probably there for like 15 minutes. And we were talking about like raising babies. And the other mom said, Oh, are you still breastfeeding? And I was like, Yeah, I’m breastfeeding right now. And she was like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t even notice I thought she was just sleeping in your heart. So they made me think like, How many times have I been nursing out in public and people haven’t even noticed, but I was the same thing. Like I don’t care what people thought. And in fact, I was definitely know where you were you uh, pull your shirt up or pull your boob out of your shirt because I was definitely like, pull my boobs up over the collar of my shirt because I was actually more nervous about people seeing my stomach than they seem like do. So it’s just like, my boob would just kind of be hanging out a little bit, but they block the baby blocks most of it from view anyway.

Phoebe  38:01

Yeah, especially when a toddler a larger baby that’s bigger in your arms. But I always pulled my shirt up. Or my my toddler would pull my shirt up for me when they wanted to nurse. They were not shy about doing that. Yeah, I just, I guess also I maybe wasn’t as conscious of nursing and public just because again, it was so short. Like I might sit down on the bench at a museum or like a playground or something. And I’d nurse them and be done. And back to what we were doing before anyone really noticed that we we had left, because it was quick. 

Shelly  38:35

Do you remember about this was like years ago 2012. Time magazine came out with that infamous cover of the mom with her toddler standing on a chair nursing and it said are you Mom enough? Do you remember this this time cover? 

Phoebe  38:53

I do I vaguely remember it? Yeah. 

Shelly  38:56

And people just lost their ever loving minds. They just lost their minds over this cover. And I do feel like obviously the photographer and Time magazine was obviously trying to make a statement. Little bit of clickbait there. But I think if you do not grow up in a culture where you see toddlers, nursing on a regular basis, it can be new and you don’t have friends or family that nurse you don’t grow, you don’t have like little kids in your life in general. It can be a little shocking and jarring to see. So I had my first one I was 21. But if I was like 19 and was out in the public and saw some random parent and are seeing their four year old, I might have had the same response because I’ve just never been exposed to that. And do you agree like that there’s a difference in people who grew up surrounded by breastfeeding and people who don’t and then reactions to seeing things like that time magazine cover.

Phoebe  39:52

Absolutely. I think there’s a big gift brands and just like I mean we’ve we’ve already talked about how A lot of breasts, a lot of birth, parents start out breastfeeding and then the rates fall off dramatically. So it may seem normal to people to breastfeed a teeny tiny baby. But as they get older, it’s more. It’s not something that’s seen as commonly. So if you don’t have close family or friends who breastfed, you might be totally shocked to see an older baby nursing and just not realizing that’s something that people do. 

Phoebe  40:28

I almost wish that I had been able to nurse my youngest, like in public more, because at that point, I was a lot more educated and knowledgeable about breastfeeding and the benefits of breastfeeding and what is, you know, the biologic norm around the world that I feel like if people had commented, I would have been more able to reply with something that was more I had more like, like a more quality response, then then maybe just like our react like an emotional reaction, if someone had commented, when I was breastfeeding, my was breastfeeding my first round in public, I would have just been able to say something a little bit more like educational or the, I don’t know, something like that.

Shelly  41:13

Yeah, I kind of went through that phase where, you know, I have my first very young and I felt like a very defensive parent, because I didn’t fit, I didn’t have friends who had babies, that was the first one that was the first one of all my siblings and cousins. And the support that I did have wasn’t very supportive. So I felt like I was walking around like almost like something to prove or chip on my shoulder. And if someone had said anything to me, with my first I would have given a very angry, sarcastic, nasty response. And then with my second, I probably would have that point, I was more relaxed and confident in my parenting and less defensive and probably would have been like, this is, you know, an end an educational response. And by the time I had my third, I probably would not have responded at all, because like, I don’t give a shit what you think, I don’t know, you, you don’t know me? Like, why are you? Why do you care? 

Shelly  42:03

You know, I do feel like there are more parents who are nursing past the year, two years and three years, but it’s just like bed sharing, right? You do it and a lot of families do it, but you just don’t talk about it. Because there is that stigma, and you are afraid of being shamed, especially in the US where even pediatricians will discourage you know, oh, you’re not still nursing, are you? And I remember with my second that I got asked that question about the PD, like you’re not still nursing. And it wasn’t a pediatrician. It was the nurse and beforehand, but and I remember, I was like, oh, no, who does that? That would be beard. But because it’s like, I can’t even bother with you right now. So I’ll just agree with you. So you leave me alone. But

Phoebe  42:48

I hadn’t experienced similar to that. When I took my, my youngest for a well child visit. For his four year well child visit. And he was like four years in two months at the time. And one of the providers in the office made, like, made a comment. I can’t remember if I was breastfeeding him in the office, or she asked and I responded that I was still breastfeeding him. And she made some comment about how I shouldn’t be or whatever. And I was confident enough in what I was doing to say, You know what, this is what’s working for us. And I don’t really need your your input on that, like, this is what we’re doing.

Shelly  43:26

I love that. So I’m gonna kind of put you on the spot a little bit. I kind of want to play like a little game. I’m gonna read off. Typically, when will you see arguments about biological nursing or nursing past a certain age? I’m going to read off some of the arguments against it. And I just want to see how like, what would your response be? Is that right? Okay. Yeah. All right. So first thing that people say, once they have teeth, you should you shouldn’t breastfeed their tools for

Phoebe  43:55

babies get teeth. I mean, babies tend to teeth around six months, but some babies get teeth well before then they absolutely still benefit from from breastfeeding just both nutritionally for so many other reasons. Like just bonding that skin to skin that closeness, emotional regulation, regulation of vital signs brain growth. Lots of babies are lots of babies do go through phases when they’re teething where they might, it might be painful for the breastfeeding parent, but just because they have teeth, this is not necessarily a reason to, to stop breastfeeding.

Shelly  44:33

Love it. Yep. I had someone say that to me. And I was like, well, some babies are born with teeth. Which is true. So what are you going to tell those babies they can’t breastfeed it? All right. Another common thing I heard say is once they can ask for it, they’re too old for it.

Phoebe  44:49

We already touched on this a little bit but just yeah, when they can ask for it. They probably are in that you know, around the year a little bit older. I mean, some other you younger babies who maybe aren’t verbal will have their ways of communicating that they want to nurse. But we already talked about how beneficial it can be for just that connection for that, you know, for for calming down an upset toddler who’s who’s gotten injured, who’s upset about something, how it can be just such a great tool in your parenting toolbox.

Shelly  45:22

Yeah, yep. I would probably say something like that to some another thing that I have said is? Well, they asked her since day one, you know, then I’m asking you the English language. But they are asking, right? Yeah, that’s true. I feel like people who say that don’t have a good idea or concept. First of all, when I hear that specific one being said, I feel like I hear a lot from men. So it makes sense that they don’t have as they’re not in tune to like, a baby’s communication, which I guess is a generalization against men. But you know, Namie like, babies communicate. Babies ask for things. We know what our babies are asking for. We work with parents who like, oh, that’s his on the hungry cry. That’s his I need a diaper change cry that says I want to be picked up cry. So yeah, your baby has been asking for it since day one. And then the last response that I hear is, once the baby hits a year old, you’re doing it for yourself, not for your baby.

Shelly  46:21

I hate that one. I hate that one.

Phoebe  46:26

is absolutely not true. At that point, it still I mean, again, you know, they’re still you’re still getting the bonding, they are still getting nutrition from the breast milk. It’s not the same as the nutrition they’re getting when they’re just days old. But they’re still getting nutrition. They’re still getting that connection that closeness and immunity antibodies. Yeah. So it’s still really beneficial for them. I mean, there, of course, there are situations where we see signs that babies are interested in weaning, and parents want to continue. But that’s not typically what we see. 

Shelly  47:07

Yeah. And I think any people who make that statement are like, again, do not understand what it’s really like to be a breastfeeding parent, you get so touched out. You so if anyone’s gonna sit there and tell me you breastfed that long for your own enjoyment or for your own? No, no, you think that it’s resting is not easy. Like it can make your life easy and a lot of ways, but it’s not easy. So you’re telling me that I’m going to have my thrill crawl all over me and asked to, to nurse because I want that? No, it’s like, I want what’s best for him. And for us, this is what we’ve decided is what’s best for him. But that’s that always was like very triggering statement to me. Like you’re just doing it for yourself at that point, because like, you have no idea how hard this is. And if there was like an easier way out to take, you know, that had the same benefits provided the babies, I would totally take it.

Phoebe  48:02

Yes, I can totally relate to that touchdown feeling.

Shelly  48:07

Do you have any tips or final words of advice for for a parent who is considering breastfeeding past a year or already is and kind of struggling with getting pushed back or anything like that?

Phoebe  48:22

Yeah, I mean, I would say just kind of lean in to what’s the biological norm around the world, because just because that’s not what we see here in the United States, doesn’t mean that it’s abnormal, to breastfeed beyond a year. And I think you just have to kind of take it one day at a time and just you know, what feels right to you and your family is going to change over time. So just kind of go what feels right to you. I would also encourage you if you know if Breastfeeding has been a large part of your life, for me, breastfeeding became such a part of my identity because I was breastfeeding for kids over many, many, many years. And when you just when you do decide that you’re done, just be prepared for it to be emotional for you even if you know that’s best for you and your family. And I would also encourage you to save some express breast milk to get like a memento or something made to kind of to just kind of keep on hand to to remember your journey.

Shelly  49:28

I love that. I mean you did that correct. Or did they say you didn’t have enough?

Phoebe  49:35

I tried to Oh, that’s right, too long after I had weaned and I wasn’t able to express enough breast milk to to get something made but I really regret that I did though.

Shelly  49:47

Do you remember the name of the company you’re going through and what they were gonna create for you if you got enough milk?

Phoebe  49:53

I was gonna get a neck a ring and give us a ring that it almost look like a pearl Yeah. Um, you know, the breast milk it was really beautiful. I don’t remember the name of the company right now, but I think I found it from like a New York Times article. Oh, here it is. It was keepsakes by grace. 

Shelly  50:14

Love it. Yeah. And there’s, there’s a lot of companies that do that way you can send them some breast milk and they’ll turn it into jewelry or some other Memento keepsake for you. I didn’t know about those. I don’t actually know if they’re even around to be honest. Like my youngest is 12. I don’t know about I don’t know if they have them. I wish I wish that I did know about them. And I wish that I had because I was pregnant or breastfeeding for seven years straight. I mean, so it did end up being a huge part of my life. And I do get sad that they don’t have anything physical to commemorate it or anything like that. I do like that. And I think I’ve told you this story before but after I’d we saw Hunter nurse longest like three years old. And after I had weaned him it had been maybe like, a few months and I was getting I was buying a dress. So I had him in the changing room with me. And I was trying on the dress and my house be a call it Mendez. And he looked up at me. He goes, Do you still have numbness? And I was like, yeah, they’re still there. They don’t go away. And he’s like, do they still have milk? And I was like, nope. And he’s like, I drink it all. And he was just like, his little face was beaming. He was like, so proud of himself and that he remembered nursing. I mean, now, you know, I’m sure if I asked him, he would not remember nursing. But it’s nice how even though a number of months had passed, he still looked at that experience fondly, and was happy about that he had had breastfed, so

Phoebe  51:48

that’s, that’s really sweet.

Shelly  51:52

Well, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story about biological nursing. And I think it’s something that we really need to talk about. So parents can know that there are people out here in the US that are quite a few that are doing biological nursing, they just don’t talk about it as much. I do think that biological nursing groups are like on Facebook, they call them extended breastfeeding groups. If you’re if you’re struggling with getting support with breastfeeding past a year, it can be helpful to join those groups and talk and meet with other moms who are breastfeeding, you know, when their babies one or two years old. Would you

Phoebe  52:27

talk to you and I agree that it’s definitely it can definitely be helpful to seek out resources like that. If you don’t know anyone who’s had a similar experience, just to know that you’re not in it alone.

Shelly  52:35

Yeah, you’re definitely not alone. And you can always DM us on Instagram and most importantly, you need a cheerleading squad. There isn’t much baby.

Shelly  52:46

Thank you. Thank you for joining us this week on the baby pro podcast. Make sure to visit our website Shelley chaff ibclc.com where you can check out more options for support to pregnancy and beyond, including the baby pro se group, our parenting community. You can also follow us on social media at Shelly tap ibclc on Instagram. If you love the show, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes to help our episodes reach more parents like you. Thanks for listening