Infant Milestones with Christine Robenault from Sparkler Parents
Christine, a pediatric physical therapist, discusses the ins and outs of milestones your baby should be reaching in the first year of life.
In this episode of the Baby Pro Podcast, hosts Shelly and Maria are joined by their guest, Christine Robenault. Christine is a pediatric physical therapist with Sweet Pea Pediatric Wellness. She has been working in the field for 22 years and specializes in pediatrics. She is also a wife and mother to three children. Christine’s expertise lies in working with children from birth to 21 years old, focusing on developmental delay, down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy, and other disabilities. In addition to her work as a physical therapist, Christine hosts a podcast called Sparkler Parents, where she discusses ways to create more present moment awareness with children. The podcast features short segments, typically lasting five to eight minutes, providing valuable insights for parents.
Throughout the episode, the guest highlights the significance of parents working on their own self-regulation. They stress the importance of seeking assistance and understanding that it is perfectly normal to not have all the solutions. The guest also mentions that in parenting, it is crucial to aim for consistency at least 51% of the time, but it is also acceptable to make mistakes as they can be corrected. They encourage parents to maintain an open mindset, practice self-compassion, and show empathy towards themselves, treating themselves as they would treat a friend in a similar situation.
Be sure to continue listening to this episode for valuable information and insights that you won’t want to miss out on!
In this episode, you will learn the following:
The infant milestones and their importance for a baby’s development.
The need for parents to be curious about their baby’s abilities and to create safe and supportive environments for them to explore and learn.
The significance of regulation in both babies and parents, highlighting the need for parents to regulate themselves in order to help their baby regulate.
The importance of listening to your baby and trusting your instincts as a parent.
The value of seeking support and resources, whether it’s from healthcare professionals, friends, or online communities, to navigate the challenges of parenting and ensure the well-being of both parent and baby.
Connect with Christine:
Instagram: 
Podcast: 
Connect with Shelly:
my website: 
Instagram: 
Resources Mentioned:
Article: Birth Control Recall:
Transcript:
Christine Robenault 0:00
I need to help you work on your breathing and your self regulation as a parent now, when we’re together and my session so that you have tools you can access when you need to use it. You can’t regulate a baby if you’re not regulated, and you have to acknowledge that that’s okay, then I’m not regulated.
Shelly 0:19
Hi, I’m Shelly. And I’m Maria. And you’re listening to the baby pro podcast, where we talk about everything in anything related to pregnancy and through the first year of your child’s life. Every episode we will discuss an interview experts and all the answers to the questions expectant and new parents want to know, such as creating the perfect birth plan, infancy, and tips and tricks for parenting a newborn, and welcome to the show. Hey, Maria. Usually, I can’t believe it is, I guess already? What happened to the frickin summer?
maria 0:52
got washed?
Shelly 0:57
Yeah, I feel like it was like super, super hot or super, super rainy.
maria 1:01
There was no, I feel like we have like one week of it being health doorstep. And the rest of the time was just rain. To New England, man. Yeah. This week.
Shelly 1:14
Our guest is Christine from Sweet Pea pediatric wellness. And she is a pediatric physical therapist who’s going to talk to us all about infant milestones and how to help your baby achieve them and what it should look like. Love it. I must admit, when I had my babies, I wasn’t too didn’t pay too much attention to milestones. I just, they just did what they did.
maria 1:37
Yeah, I guess I didn’t ever really think of it in terms of like, is she reaching her milestones? It was I was like, we would go for a pediatric visit. And the pediatrician would be like, alright, you know, over the next whatever amount of time. These are the things she should be doing. And like more or less, she was always like, like a little clock right on time. Oh, it’s six months now. I’m supposed to be sitting up on my own. Oh, oh, I’m one years old. Now. I supposed to be walking. It was just always the funniest thing like
Shelly 2:10
she knew she read the books. Yeah.
Shelly 2:14
She listened to the pediatrician. She heard what they said.
Shelly 2:17
Yeah. So that’s, that’s on brand for ya. But before we talk with Christine, I did want to bring up the story that was released today, there was a recall on birth control pills. Reduced effectiveness, which is no bueno. That’s not why we take birth control. Birth control is by Lupin pediatrics. I don’t know if I’m saying that right, saying that right. And it’s T Demi t YDMY. A prescription oral contraceptive. They were distributed between June 3 2022 and may 31 2023. And they are set to expire in January and September of 2024. And the reason why they are not as effective is that they test a low for sorbic acid, which may affect how well the pill works and results in unwanted pregnancy. No kidding. Yeah, that’s my levels and purity. We’re also apparently found Lupin says that it hasn’t received any reports of adverse effects or unwanted pregnancy so far. But yeah, if you are on that birth control,
maria 3:33
I want to check it. Yes. Now let’s
Shelly 3:36
do our question of the week. So this week’s question was actually submitted on our Facebook group. And it’s, it’s more for us. And the question is, what are some breastfeeding products that you cannot live without?
maria 3:53
Yeah, I saw that one come up. Like I thought about it for a little bit. And honestly, the only thing for me was the body. And like as a lactation consultant, that Boppy is honestly not my favorite thing.
Shelly 4:09
I was gonna say the same thing as much as I
Shelly 4:12
but I had huge boobs. When I was breastfeeding. huge, enormous boobs when I was breastfeeding. I’m already a busty person. So add milk making on top of that, and they were just ginormous, think F cups.
Shelly 4:29
huge boobs. The boppie under those circumstances is super helpful. When you have big breasts and you’re trying to breastfeed, it is very challenging to get that because your boob is essentially the size of your baby. And like trying to wrangle a new baby and this ginormous other thing that’s the size of your baby and filled with milk and squirting them in the face. Is like a lot Okay, so I live with my bobby. And How old’s Morgan again? She said now? Yeah. So
Shelly 5:07
when I was having I’m pretty sure this is true for when you had Morgan. But when I had my babies, the Boppy was it. There were no other breastfeeding pillows on the market at the time.
Shelly 5:18
That was the my best friend. Let that one. I did not like being strapped into the pillow and felt it was too firm. It didn’t really support me in the way that I needed to support me. Yeah,
Shelly 5:34
I use the Boppy. Because, you know, my youngest is 13. So maybe my best friend came out between 100 and Morgan being born. But there was no other pillow like the Bobby was it and as a lactation consultant, now I have issues with the Bobby, I feel like it’s too soft, and it tends to move away from the parent, the baby sink into the hole. But as a mom, I use it every single day. And I could certainly leave the house and breastfeed without it or wasn’t dependent on it. But I would just like, put the pillow on the table, or my dad’s put the baby on top of it just set up my watch a lot. And I have my hands freed for like typing on my laptop or reading a book or, or whatnot.
Shelly 6:18
I do say for parents of probably babies under a month. It’s really not great. And then you’re one of those people with like really large breasts that have a hard time like supporting your breasts while you’re trying to learn to breastfeed. In which case, the body is really more there to support your body not
Shelly 6:39
right, or to support your arms while your arms support the beat. Yeah, yeah. So as much as I hate to say it, I would say the Boppy breast pads too, because I was a huge leaker. Yeah, I’ve really wish they had the haka when I was breastfeeding, or any other milk collector because I would just literally hold a coffee mug to my other fraudster. Well, the milk just sprayed out.
Shelly 7:01
I didn’t have that issue, but I was massively gorged when my milk first came in, like my boobs are so bad. And I every time I see someone with a hug, I’m like, I really wish they had that one. I
Shelly 7:17
still have a picture of my breasts when my milk came in with summer because they got so massive and and gorge, I was so impressed. Like you I was not a busty girl. So I was like take a picture. I was like, I better record this. I can remember the time I had breads. But yeah, I think when it comes to breastfeeding products, there are some products that work great for some parents, and then those same products can work terribly. For. So that’s the tricky thing, when you’re asking on Facebook groups, like what do I need for breastfeeding? Just what you’re the answers you’re gonna get are what worked best for them, and not necessarily what worked is going to work best for you
Shelly 8:01
one. And even though like I lived at the Boppy, I will say that most of the people I see, I teach them how not to use it for basically how to breastfeed without
Shelly 8:13
it. Right because that is one thing that can happen is people become too dependent. And they can’t latch in nursery baby without the pillow. Right. And then they’re in like lugging it everywhere, and,
Shelly 8:23
and years and you can still have really poor posture when you’re breastfeeding yourself all kinds of like neck and shoulder pain,
Shelly 8:31
especially if it’s a long torso. Yeah, long torso you have to like hunched over. Yeah, sometimes when I’m doing home visits, I’m like shoving other pillows underneath the breast friend of the boppie to like, bring the pillow. I’m like your baby’s basically sitting in your lap. Yeah, mile away from your bras and you’re trying to lean over latch on like, let’s fix that because no one should have back pain while feeding the baby. Yeah, for sure. But that was a good question. And if you have a question that you’d like us to answer on the podcast, you can submit them to me on Instagram, actually tapped ibclc. And next up, we will be speaking with Christine.
Shelly 9:11
This week, I really wanted to have a guest come on and talk about infant milestones because not only is that something that a lot of parents can stress or worry about or feel like they don’t know that much about and what to look for. But it also can tie into feeding struggles. So whenever your baby’s having difficulty feeding from the breast or the bottle, or bottle feeding, there can be a connection between their physical structure and whether or not they’re showing appropriate reflexes or milestone. So this week I have Christine Robin Aw. Christina is a physical therapist, wife and mother to three children. She works mostly with children but also has a strong interest in nutrition, mental health and addressing pain. management for all since 2013. She has been a pioneer in the use of live video visits to provide children in rural areas of the state. With physical therapy services. Christine incorporates her practice additional training and nutrition education into her pediatric sessions to help kids with constipation, pain and reflex. She holds an endorsement in infant mental health as well as certificates in AC T for chronic pain 200 hour yoga teacher training and mindfulness. She values a multidisciplinary approach and an actively works to build bridges between patients, providers and families. In efforts to better support all parents she hosts a podcast called sparkler parents, where she discusses ways to create more present moment awareness with your children. Hi, Christine, how are you?
Christine Robenault 10:52
I’m well, thank you.
Shelly 10:54
Thanks for joining me today.
Christine Robenault 10:56
Absolutely.
Shelly 10:57
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Christine Robenault 10:59
For sure. My name is Christine Robenault all and I am a physical therapist, I’ve been a physical therapist for 22 years, I have worked in all settings. Most recently I am working in pediatrics. So I work with kiddos birth to 21 across all different disabilities and developmental delay to kids who have Down syndrome, autism, cerebral palsy. So I see a lot of different diagnoses. But I’m really interested in typical development and what parents think is typical, and making sure that people understand the variations, and just helping them along the way.
Shelly 11:38
So how did you get into physical therapy? Like what made you decide to go into the field of physical therapy? And then my second question is, what made you decide to start to go into pediatric?
Christine Robenault 11:49
Yeah, that’s a great question. So my third grade teacher, she knows this, I’m still friends with her on Facebook, she would line up she was pregnant during the time I was in the third grade. And from my recollection, as an eight year old, she would line us up during like movies to massage her back and shoulders. And this is my recollection, she asked me to come back twice. So I thought that I’m pretty good at this, like hands on stuff. And in high school, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to be. And my mom was someone who definitely wanted me to have everything planned out. So I went to the library and got a bunch of books about what what I could be, I thought maybe I’d be a psychologist or a teacher, I thought back about what I’d like to do about like that massage kind of bodywork stuff. And I came across physical therapy. So it really was my third grade teacher who I think kind of put that idea of that I’m good with my hands in that way. And then as it turns out, I get to be all those things I get to be a teacher, I get to be kind of in that mental health space. I’m working with the nervous system, and the nervous system connects our brain and our body, our thoughts, our emotions, our feelings, all of it. So I can’t take anything out of the kid, I can’t remove their sensory experience, I can’t remove their emotional experience as I’m working with their physical body. So it’s been a very enjoyable career. I’m in pediatrics because it is the most fun. And to me it is I also like neuro in general. So if I’m working with a stroke victim or someone who has a traumatic brain injury, I just get to sing a lot more songs and play a lot more games with the kids. So I I like that I like that playful, it helps me be playful. And if we are able to access our playful space, that means we’re in a ventral vagal state, we’re in a calm, open and alert state as opposed to like protection. So I like to keep checking myself on a daily basis, I still have access to play and fun
Shelly 13:59
And what’s your favorite thing about infants, specifically?
Christine Robenault 14:03
infants, just the potential, the capacity, I do view myself as a guide. So like I’m not the one taking the child and like burden do this next I see it more as like I’m holding a flashlight, and I’m shining the light on the path for the child and the parent together to go on. So I enjoy that kind of coach type of role. And I have three kids of my own I was a surrogate so I have like another like family that I’m still connected to even though he’s not mine. So I really just enjoy relationships. Relationships that boat that’s pretty much the crux of everything so yeah, yeah,
Shelly 14:50
I love that and first of all, there’s always there’s always like a teacher right is someone so like what inspired me story or got me going on the right track? I feel Like there’s always a teacher involved somewhere. So kudos to teachers. And I love what you said about working with epic having the infant’s having so much potential because I do feel like in our culture, we are kind of dismissive of everything that babies can do. Like we view them as being such helpless creatures, and in a way they are, but they are capable of so much more than we think they are, if we know how to communicate with them, and what to look for, because we’re all taught how to like change a diaper, and all of the basic infant care things by how many parents are learning how to actually communicate with their babies, and how to read the body signals that babies are constantly sending out in their attempt to communicate with the parents. As a physical therapist, you must be focused a lot on that, like, look at what your baby’s doing, this is what your baby’s trying to tell you.
Christine Robenault 15:55
Yeah, and 100%. And that early communication, that early relationship and attachment, and how to foster that, and how to recognize in your own self as a parent when you are leaving your safe space. Like there’s nothing wrong, I say this without any judgment, mainly because I went through it. And I was the parent who had a lot of anxiety about parenting and didn’t know what to do, and even spanked my first child, like, I’m a bit ashamed to say that, but I didn’t have the tools to really develop that relationship. And then good thing with all of that is all of that stuff is repairable. More recently, I’ve been taking some parenting classes, I’m a circle of security facilitator, and they talk about 51% of the time, we need to be in this open this space where we’re making these connections with her child 51% of the time, we need to be consistent. And the rest of the time, if we’re making mistakes, we’re going to make mistakes, and it’s all repairable. But we can come back around and realize that there’s a different way. Sometimes that requires more learning, it requires us to be open as a parent, and to understand that we have to have compassion for ourselves. So I do find that people who tend to judge other people or be worried about people judging them are individuals, and again, myself included, who are very hard on themselves. So if we can start with ourselves that self compassion piece at empathy, what would I tell a friend, if they were in the situation? I’m not going to tell them that they’re a horrible mom? And they should just, you know, like, I would tell my friend, it’s okay. Gosh, you know, that sounds like that was really hard. And why don’t we extend that same compassion to ourselves? Or why did we find that hard? Is it something to be curious about, and something that I hope that I can stay with parents, meaning I can stay with them in that emotional space so that they can kind of come to that realization for themselves? Because nobody likes to be told what to do?
Shelly 18:08
Yeah, I think some of the best advice I’ve ever heard is like, talk to yourself, make your inner dialogue to yourself the same way that you would talk to a friend, which is, you know, pretty on line with what you said to. So when it comes to infant milestones, because a lot of parents are stressed out about infant milestones and whether their babies are meeting their milestones, and what to do if the babies are not meeting their milestones. Can you provide like a brief overview of what the infant milestones are and why they are important for baby’s development?
Christine Robenault 18:40
Yes, so we’ll, we’ll talk about the period of life, maybe birth to nine months or birth to a year, what would you think to birth to a year? Okay? So for the first three months of life, when the baby comes home from the hospital, and maybe some babies might have been in the hospital in the NICU, maybe they’ve been premature. But let’s let’s go from the estimated due date forward about three months, that time the baby needs you the most, they are unable to regulate their own body’s needs. They have a lot of reflexes that are there intentionally to help them with survival. And those reflexes do help them understand that it’s time to eat or where to go to eat. So if they feel something touching their face, they’ll turn their head. So one of the things I want to make sure is that we see a lot of symmetry in the baby’s body that the baby can turn as well to the right side as they can turn to the left side, that the baby is able to be calm down when you pick them up. So that’s a milestone that the baby can understand that someone is here to help me and if they’re not doing this, I don’t want to say that there’s anything like wrong, but what can be curious about what might be having, why the child might be having a hard time calming when being picked up those and that’s for all of these if we’re not meeting milestones when we would expect them in, instead of being in the space of, Oh, my baby doesn’t want to do that, or my baby doesn’t like that. And so I’m not going to give them that experience.
Christine Robenault 20:21
I’d like to stay in the space of Well, I wonder, under which conditions can your baby do this, or what does it look like to you is the baby able to lift their head when when the baby is laying on your chest and you’re holding, can the baby lift their head there, they may not be able to do tummy time on the floor right now. So in that zero to three month range, is symmetry of their head left to right, moving all of their limbs may not look very coordinated, but they have ability to move all of their limbs. And I think the beginnings of being able to lift their head up against gravity, but also be able to come into flexion. So flexion, or curl up. And I want to stress that right now, the American Academy of Pediatrics does continue to say back to back to sleep, that’s the safest, but we need to build in other times when the baby is awake, or when you’re awake with the baby to get them on their tummy. And to get them curled up. Because that is important.
Christine Robenault 21:24
That is information that they’re getting from that body position from that head position that’s going to help them later on. And I do think that the back to sleep program, it has saved life because that is taking a risk factor away for SIDS. For sure. We’re also at the same time losing natural opportunities for baby to be on their bellies. So we just have to be intentional about that and, and let them do that when they’re awake or when we’re there watching them to be on their tummy curled up, as well as opportunities for lifting up their head.
Christine Robenault 21:59
So I guess that’s the first year to three months that we’re just starting those experiences and knowing that the baby is needing the most support for calming, from four months to six months, babies should start to be able to regulate their body a little bit more, have more consistent wake in nap times and sleeping, and then be able to do more things outside of themselves, like pay much more attention to what you are doing, begin to explore their own hands come to the midline. midline is a big word that people like to use, it just means that they now are not either to one side or the other, that they’re able to come into the center, a milestone around four to five months is their starting to be able to push up onto their extended arms when they’re on their tummy. So that’s why earlier on, it’s good to keep them on their tummy, they need to have the experience of how to start to lift up so that by four months, they’re ready for that.
Christine Robenault 22:59
So it’s not like these skills just pop out. These skills are developed because pathways grow. When we are born, we are born with all of the brain cells we’re going to have. But there’s very little connections between them. So it would be like the equivalent. I’ve heard some people use like if it was a phone system. Back in the day, when we actually had operators picking up and connecting phone lines, you have all the operators all throughout the country, but there’s no telephone wires connecting them. So in order to access those cells, in order to make meaning of our brain structure, we need connections. And that is what that early experience in that entire first year is doing for the baby is giving them experiences experiences on their tummy experiences on their back experiences. Looking at your face, we learn about our internal and external environment through our sensory system. And I want as many experiences that are safe to be perceived by the baby as safe. And so that’s where that curiosity stays as we’re doing these different skills or as we’re doing these different body positions and you notice that my baby hates to be on their belly. As a parent, you don’t want to put your little one through something that looks so hard and they always are screaming and crying. So our natural instinct is to avoid it. But then we’re limiting what they how they can make these connections.
Shelly 24:36
The whole neurons that fire together wire together, saying
Christine Robenault 24:42
yes, I love that.
Shelly 24:44
I love what you said about especially the zero to three months because that’s primarily the client the age of infants that I’m working with primarily are zero to three months. And what I always am checking for asymmetry and tightness in their body like you mentioned because babies breastfeed with their entire bodies, not just with their mouths. So if a baby has like a lot of tightness in their hips or a turning preference, it’s going to impact the way that they feed. Right?
Shelly 25:08
What I find frustrating is oftentimes, there are structural issues going on with the baby, like they do have a turning preference, or they do have tightness. And, you know, they’re two days old and already rolling, which, you know, people, I hate bursting that bubble, because parents think, Oh, my baby’s a genius, and so advanced because he’s already rolling in two days, but they’re not supposed to be rolling at that point. But I feel like most of the medical community is very dismissive of that, especially when it comes to breastfeeding. Because like you mentioned, babies are born wired to do certain things. And one of them is breastfeeding or suckling at the breast and whether or not you’re planning on breastfeeding or not, this is like outside of that, because you should feed your baby however you want. But if a baby is physically incapable of latching on, to me, that’s a red flag. Like something is not working, right? If that makes sense. I like to think of being able to breastfeed is like another reflex or vital signs. So if, if a baby’s not latching and they go to the pediatrician, and the pediatrician is like, well, that’s okay, we have bottles, right? But if you took your three year old to the pediatrician that, oh, maybe my child can’t walk yet. They wouldn’t say, well, that’s okay. We have wheelchairs, because you’re in a different area of the country than me, do you find that that’s the case where you are as well, where there’s like a lot of dismissal of like a baby who’s kind of like stuck have colic? Or is very tight, and like it can’t be calmed down very easily.
Christine Robenault 26:36
Yes, yes. And I think it’s because medical doctors, in my experience, unless they really take the time to learn about these other things, only know what they know, and stay stuck with what they learned in school. And if I stayed stuck in what I learned in school, and didn’t have, like curiosity to take other classes, and I’m not saying that pediatricians don’t take other classes or other continuing education, but what are they taking continuation in, may not be the same thing that I’m taking continuation credits in or yourself, and, and that day to day experience. And, in general, given the experience the child will learn, given the experience, a child will do what is asked of them, but the baby to the breast, the baby latches in general. And so when somebody comes in, and the theory would be well, just keep trying, just keep trying harder, because you just need to they need to practice more, instead of thinking what is hard about this for them? What part of this is not working, as we would expect? And I like to go back to that. Like, which part is it? Is it a structural change in their palate? Can they not pull their tongue forward up to where they need to bring it?
Christine Robenault 27:55
Is it something where my son, my first son, again, I was so confused with him. I wasn’t in pediatrics. 15 years ago, I got started in peds more about 12. So I did my first son without any of this knowledge. He wouldn’t nurse, he wouldn’t nurse and so I started taking fenugreek to try to increase my milk supply. And they gave me a nipple shield and he would nurse and then I will take them nipple shield got eaten by the dog. And so I had to do without and but I had a stand up to nurse I couldn’t sit down to nurse except for one on the right side I could and I’m like what’s going on and say have me go to lactation. And then I finally realized, Oh, the angle of my nipple is different on the left and the right. And in order for him to latch, I had to stand up. And that changed the angle. And then I went to my brother’s wedding and I stopped Oh, he started going on a nursing strike because I was taking a fenugreek to try to increase the milk supply. I went up to my brother’s wedding didn’t take the fenugreek he started nursing again. Oh, I don’t think he liked the smell. He was sensitive to that was my interpretation. So there was a sensory preference for him that he didn’t like that smell I had to take a ton of the fenugreek to make it work. And when I stopped taking it all of a sudden He nursed on the airplane, he nurse in the bathroom. He nursed everywhere. Two weeks ago, he wasn’t nursing at all.
Christine Robenault 29:15
So with like just staying I was lucky enough to stay curious even though I didn’t know what I was doing and the lactation support i They were trying they were trying to help me you know with the position try this pillow try that pillow, but it just took some trial and error and some listening and watching my say listening I mean like tuning to him to see what was working and what wasn’t. And also trying to stay in this space where it was hard for me at that time with my first of knowing that I know what he needs, that everybody else is telling me do this, do that do this. And when I was able to stay in a space of I’m, no, I’m not going to take that anymore. Even though I may not make as much milk, whatever, I’m not going to take that. And I’m going to see what happens and being okay with making mistakes.
Christine Robenault 30:12
So back to the doctors, they are medical professionals. And if there’s a medical problem, a disease process that’s going on something that is medic, my child isn’t gaining weight, like something medically, I think, yes, we absolutely need to listen to them. But there’s a lot of things that as a parent, I need to listen to myself and my child. And I need to pay attention to those cues. When is my baby engaging with me? When is my baby turning away? When is my baby looking calm with their body? When are they looking tight and tense? And how do I create more conditions for that calmness? Does it that means that I have to swaddle my baby, I swaddle my baby, because I’m going to try to create this regulation.
Christine Robenault 31:02
Regulation is when I am balanced, when I am not being pushed over. And I’m not pushing other people over, I’m in a space where I’m ready to do the task at hand, I’m ready to eat, I’m ready to go to sleep, I’m ready to play. That is regulation, and some babies come out with a little bit lower muscle tone. And so there’s things that we can do before we to help them regulate to get them to a point where they’re ready to do the task at hand. And some babies come out with a little bit higher energy and tone, and we have to do something different to regulate their systems. And this is important, zero to three especially I had said this before, they cannot regulate their own systems, their nervous system is not mature enough. And if you’re, if you’re two days old, and you’re rolling over, you are not doing that, because that is a volitional movement that you’re trying, you’re doing that as a reaction to something else. So you are trying to avoid something. And that’s where the role is coming. As opposed to I have control right now. There is no possible way at two days old, you have control over your motor system.
Shelly 32:16
And love that. And thank you for saying that about babies being co regulators. I talked about that all the time on my Instagram page like of how they cannot physically bring themselves down on a fight or flight when they’re stuck in there. They need support doing that. And in order for you to support your baby, stay right staying regulate, you have to be regulate. So sometimes it’s a little bit of working on both your baby and yourself.
Christine Robenault 32:42
1,000% Do you know how to regulate yourself 100% of the time independently. As an adult?
Shelly 32:50
You know, sometimes we have to relearn if we were not taught how to regulate ourselves when we were growing up. How would you how can we expect us to learn to know how like so sometimes it’s a process of like, teaching yourself how to regulate learning how to regulate so that you can help your child regulate.
Christine Robenault 33:08
and acknowledging that it’s okay to ask for help. That was a big thing for me. I felt like I had to do everything. I felt like I was his mom, I had to do everything. If I asked somebody else to help me, I’m a failure. So now I’ve got some issues with anxiety. So you know, there’s that. But I do think that every parent has a bit of this kind of like impostor syndrome feeling? And to what degree are you able to move in and out of this? Or do you feel like you’re stuck in this and if you feel like you’re stuck in that right now, I have no idea what I’m doing. I’m a failure. I’m a horrible mom, you absolutely need a resource. And if there’s not a resource within you, then you’ve got Shelly and her Instagram page and her support or you’ve got your own mother or you have your best friend or you have the lactation support at the hospital or clinic. Like find your resources. I tell my parents, especially for babies who are like, very colicky or up a lot at night. Like think about who you might be able to ask if they can be your resource at 2am for a lot of my mother…
Shelly 34:24
I am the 2am person for me if it were me in my family, I was the 2am person because I just happen to be the first to have a baby.
Christine Robenault 34:30
So yes, you need to decide and have that conversation at 3pm at noon. Can I call you if I need you? Because you need somebody especially if you’re a single mom or your husband or partner is deployed or works nights or you need to have a plan you need to gather your resources when you are in a calm state. You need to practice why do we practice them? Are drills with kids at school so that in an emergency situation, they don’t have to think I need to help you work on your breathing and your self regulation as a parent. Now, when we’re together in my session, so that you have tools you can access when you need to use it.
Christine Robenault 35:16
You can’t regulate a baby if you’re not regulated. And you’d have to acknowledge that that’s okay, then I’m not regulated. Right now I realize I’m talking fast. I’m talking about so I’m actually reaching the edges of my regulation. When I was little, I talk fast and loud all the time and had no awareness of it. People would laugh at me, because like, oh, yeah, you’re just the little Italian girl who talks fast and loud? No, that was me saying to the world, I am dysregulated. And everybody just looks at me and says, Well, you’re just the fast, loud talker. I can talk softly and slowly. I have options. But when I was in that space of, I don’t think anybody likes me, I need to get through this conversation. So I already get excited about what I’m talking about. I move outside of what is normal. And so we need to acknowledge in our own system, and this is it’s the same, it’s the same for our baby is it is the same for us because it’s the same nervous system.
Christine Robenault 36:24
And if I know how to tap into my own nervous system through touch, asking for a hug, giving my own self a hug, I can help also be like, Oh, I wonder if that’ll help my baby. Proprioception is a great way to help create safety. And one of the reasons why we swaddle babies is for proprioception. Proprioception is such an important sense, it helps me know where I am in space based off a position of my joints. But am I safe there, if I am perceiving not safe, I am going to react as if the situation is not safe, fight flight or freeze. If I am perceiving safety, I am in that ventral vagal state, I am alert, calm social, being able to engage am regulated. And so we can use the signals that our baby is showing us with their body movements, we can use an intuitive sense that we have as parents of what you need.
Christine Robenault 37:30
Like her Dr. Harvey karp, karp talks about the sshhhshhh, or the football hold on, none of those things are magic, you didn’t come up with any of those things. He paid attention to what the kid did. And oh, that works. Here. I’ll show you another one that works. Tapping on the center of their chest. One, two, cha cha cha, this nice rhythmical tapping helps tapping on their bottoms the same way, one, two. It’s a nice rhythm. And it’s the same rhythm that’s in all these nursery rhymes, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. So we inherently know this, you know how to touch your baby, let yourself trust yourself. And if you can’t trust yourself, get a resource.
Shelly 38:21
I love that you’d look at families holistically, like you’re not just focusing on the baby, what’s going on with the baby, you’re looking at the baby and how they’re like the feeling as a dyad? How can we help the entire family and not just focus on what’s quote unquote, wrong with the baby. And we need more providers like that. So I love that.
Shelly 38:37
I did want to go back a little bit to what you were saying about the tummy time. And the back to sleep campaign. Because I think what a lot of parents don’t realize is I think it was 1996 that the back to sleep campaign came out, right? The original campaign was back to sleep, Tummy to play. And then as the media pushed out news of the campaign, they kind of just started to drop the tummy to play and it became the back to sleep campaign. And so that meant that part of the message was missed, because even the AAP knew, Okay, if we’re encouraging parents to put their babies on their backs for sleep, we need to also encourage them to give them like more opportunities to also be on their belly when they’re awake. And because we happen to live in a container culture. It didn’t happen like that. And that’s why we have like 40s I think it’s 40% of babies have flat heads and the increase of having to use helmets has drastically gone up because that part of the message was missed.
Shelly 39:35
And then I think the other factor that ties into what we’re you’re talking about is we’re told to do tummy time, but we’re not taught how. And so we’re told that we go to the pediatrician, they say, Okay, you need to start time. Anytime you go home, we put our babies on their belly on the floor, they start crying and we’re like, Well, that didn’t work and you just don’t do it again. And so that contributes as well. I was just curious about what your your thoughts were on that and what parents can do to kind of offset the the effects of container culture and how they can help make tummy time easier for their babies. If their babies aren’t leaking tummy time I prescribe. I don’t prescribe. But I tell most of the families that I work with that are having breastfeeding issues. I have them work on tummy time. And sometimes you’re like, Well, why are we doing what does this have to do with breastfeeding? And it’s not understanding how the baby uses their entire body and how the baby moves their body can contribute to whether or not they’re feeding with a breast or a bottle? Very well.
Christine Robenault 40:32
Yeah, that’s great. And thank you for being an advocate for movement and for different positioning, because that is so important in a variety of positions. And like I said, I want the baby to be able to tolerate a variety of positions, especially as they get older.
Christine Robenault 40:49
So tummy time, let’s just say anything where the baby’s face is relatively down. And they have to work against gravity is one thing. But even in the earlier stages, tummy time and being on their tummy, allows the whole front part of their body to understand this is the front. So there’s a yoga pose called Child’s Pose. And it’s where you’re curled up and kind of rounded down like this. And that is the beginning of understanding I have a front body. So before I need to even lift my head up against gravity, I need to be okay with feeling this front body. And then we put them on their back and then they learn that they have a back body. This is the very first division that we are making in our, in our neurological system. I have a front and I have a back.
Christine Robenault 41:45
And so even as they’re sleeping on your chest for a little catnap, or cuddling with you skin to skin, and if you use any sort of like different skin I have, I’m trying to think of the name of it, I have a little rap that’s like specifically meant for skin to skin in my car right now. Or like a joey rap to help promote that this is my front body. So that’s first important especially for that 00 to three month population. And as we get a little bit older, and you start to notice that they are lifting up their head and neck, they are going to do best when they have some stability down here at their sacrum at their right above the diaper line. And as an example, for an adult, if I had to sit down, lay down and do a sit up right now would would you do the sit up easier if I held on to your feet? Or if I didn’t hold on to your feet? Which way would you have?
Shelly 42:44
Definitely if you held on to my feet?
Christine Robenault 42:46
Did I give you any strength? Did I give you strength?
Shelly 42:49
No, but stability, right?
Christine Robenault 42:51
Stability, so I gave you access to your strength. And so that’s what you’re doing here, that baby is working really hard to lift that head up by by eight to 10 weeks, if you’re holding the baby upright at your shoulder, you should see some pretty good head control the baby’s head should not no longer be bubbling around by 10 weeks of after birth. But then that’s a whole nother story, then we’re down here flat, that’s a lot more to lift up. And so that’s why I would say in both positions, you’re going to give some stability here so that they can access that strength that they’re developing in their head and neck. So this would be like the first time any time type of position or if you are laying down
Christine Robenault 43:35
I’ll say pathways.org is a wonderful YouTube channel and website to look for all of these videos with actual little babies, not my Carebear that I have here. But your tummy at a bit of an angle that the baby is on your chest or tummy in your supporting down at right above the diaper line, they can look at you that that leads into motivation to be on their tummy, would you want to be laying on your tummy and there’s nothing to do down there like late have them laid in look at you or lay down on the floor with them. And then then we have on their tummies their arms may not know what to do. I mentioned that for months, we start to understand how to push up. But before that we have to even just understand how to kind of keep those arms in front of our bodies. So as our nervous system starts to develop the front and the back to the body, then we start talking about developing top to bottom. And so how our arms develop and how our legs develop.
Christine Robenault 44:37
And we do things typically in unison we do things with both arms together so we’re pulling or we’re pushing and babies look like they’re doing a lot of things like they like to grab at you they like they have reflexes that get them to grab onto your shirt or your earrings or your hair and they are super wrong because the reflex tells them so When the specific stimulus enters their hand, they grasp, that’s what we expect. They pull, that’s what I expect to see. And so these are all reflexes that help the child and the baby develop options. If I’m going to pull the next thing I need to know how to push. But I have to have all of those foundational experiences so that I can start to learn these opposites. It’s called the relational frame theory, Steven Hayes talks about it from a psychological perspective. And it’s how we learn about our world. I only know what cold is because I know what hot is.
Christine Robenault 45:39
So I learned through my experiences that helped me learn one thing and all the qualities of one thing compared to all the qualities of another thing, and we’re learning this at a subcortical level, I’m learning this at a very experiential, physical, sensory level. And then one day when I’m four or five years old, maybe even a little bit younger, I can understand it in my cognitive brain, like, Oh, this is the color pink compared to something different. But early on, is this very visceral. I like this experience, or I don’t like this experience. And so back to when you notice your baby is struggling, what is hard about that? And what do I need to change about their environments, internal or external environments, to help them be more successful, it might be the person in the room, it might be that there’s too many people in the room, it might be that their little sibling who’s two or three is running around crazy, and the baby is a little bit more tense. It might be that there’s too many lights and sounds so we can modulate for the baby, because the baby can’t tune out that stuff independently yet, and create an environment of safety.
Christine Robenault 47:04
This is why sleep is so important, too. I know myself, and I don’t get enough sleep, I’m not going to show you my best the next day. And so just understanding, again, more holistically what is happening for this baby, as opposed to looking at it as an isolated skill. Baby doesn’t like tummy time, I’m going to be curious about why baby doesn’t like tummy time. And I’m gonna think about all of those things, including sleep, including diet, or what their, how they’re able to nursing get calories, and because all of those things help support regulation.
Shelly 47:41
Yes, I love that. And I will say, when I teach families, the tummy time, I will often put if the baby’s having trouble lifting their head, especially if they’re putting all their movement in there behind. I just lightly show the parents how to give that support above their diaper area. I call it that we call it the happy hiney helper. It’s amazing how just putting like a little bit of pressure there. And then all of a sudden, the baby starts to lift their head and turn and, and lift.
Shelly 48:08
But yeah, I totally agree. Babies have to be regulated, I tell families. The most important part is how many times the interaction between you and baby while it’s going on and keeping baby regulated. So we do a lot of do a lot of research on like polyvagal theory and things like that, and letting the baby experienced the tummy time. But when they hit their peak, and they start to go into frustration, then we take the baby out of tummy time, you know, calm and regulate baby and then we can try again. But it’s not about just putting your baby on their belly and watching them cry. So I love that.
Christine Robenault 48:43
Yes, thank you. Thank you. And I’ll just I’ll ask, maybe when they’re getting a little frustrated, and you’re thinking they’re having a hard time, yes, see if you can engage with them a little bit differently, try something new. And then let’s help them roll out of it. So rolling is going to start with our head. This is it’s called mouth spine rotation. It’s a movement that we’ve made from about 13 to 14 weeks gestation, that we can turn our head on our body, when we come out, we tend to be a little more late. And so we can slow the baby down though. And this is going to help with nursing that I can have that baby turn their head, follow a sign of sound follow a visual cue. And then we can help them roll out of the position. And they’re going to need some support for a while probably until about three ish four months of age where they can do this by themselves. But if we’re looking at helping support nursing and routing, we can use these stimuli to help support the movement. And what you said about the hand on the happy hiney that spinal Peres so I won’t get into all the reflexes, but there’s a very good reason why that particular stability allows the baby to lift their head, head it’s all reflex based.
Shelly 49:59
You have this really great graphic that I’m looking at right now. And it kind of is tying in to what we’re talking about right now. Because if a baby is like struggling with something, for example, like tummy time, you have some certain steps that you you advise parents to go through. Can you talk a little bit about this graphic?
Christine Robenault 50:17
For sure. So, first of all, I’ll preface this with what is it says in the lower right hand corner, I think because it says like, always an act with love, compassion, unconditional love your baby, you will always love your baby, no matter what it does, or doesn’t do, you’re going to provide love to the baby. So as we start to ask the baby to do certain things, I would invite you to stay in that space of just knowing that I’m gonna love my baby, whether he does the tummy time or not. And that we’re gonna always stay in that kind of compassionate, curious, I wonder what is challenging here, because if we can stay in that space, we will stay out of this kind of power struggle. When we get in power struggles with our babies, it’s not fun. Because resistance will always be met with resistance. So we’re gonna stay in this open, curious space, and act with love and compassion for ourselves and for our baby, then, we will always invite what we want to see.
Christine Robenault 51:17
If I’m going to go up to a dog. And I want to pet the dog, I’m not going to put my hand on top of its head and like put it like this, I’m going to come in with this open hand, I’m going to invite what I want to see. And I use the example of a dog. I know what babies are not dogs. But I want to create this open invitation, as opposed to I’m coming at you with something. And when I invite what I want to see, and I don’t see it in the example of tummy time, I expect the baby to be happy playing on their tummy Oh, yeah, looking around. And instead of their the screaming and writing and getting all very, very mad, I’m going to stop and think, Is this a skill that they can do, or they don’t want to do it. And I may or may not know that, if this is a little baby before that three months of age, they can’t do this yet by themselves, they are going to need some help. If this is a two year old, they want to have tummy time or be on their belly. Again, it can be a combination of both, maybe they don’t want to do it. But it’s also really hard. And so kind of thinking about that, okay, this is really hard for them. What is hard about this, and most likely, I’m taking away one of the distractions that is making this hard, I might be making the activity a little bit more easier by by changing the angle, I might be helping hold the baby up a little bit so that they’re not having to lift up their entire body weight, I can use a Boppy or some my leg or something to prop them against so that I can get their arms in front of their bodies. So there’s lots of different ways that I can make the activity easier.
Christine Robenault 53:03
If that is something that you don’t know, as a parent, I think that’s a really good time to come in and consult with a pediatric physical or occupational therapist. Also take a look at if you have concerns for your baby’s development, something called Child Find. All states have early intervention services and what they actually are called each state calls it differently. But all states provide support for kids at least zero to two, some will go up to three. And you can always get the evaluation and anybody can refer your pediatrician, you can refer yourself to get the evaluation. And they’ll give you a lot of information. If your baby doesn’t qualify for services, they’ll tell you some next steps. Or if your baby does qualify for services, you’ll get to see me and so. So that’s a really good starting point, if you’re not sure or you want some additional support other than your pediatrician or other than the baby book that you’re reading.
Christine Robenault 53:59
Back to my graphic. If you tried to change some of the environment, and it’s still not working, make it novel, make it fun, get something in there that might be a little more exciting. And if that still isn’t working, be curious about what is working, what is your baby do easily. And then try to challenge it from there. So in the case of tummy time, baby doesn’t like to be on their bellies. But baby does okay when I have them up here at my chest, or baby seems to be okay, if I’m like just kind of snuggling with the baby singing to the baby then start with one and let the baby get really good at that. And then as baby get good with that, then you can make it a little bit harder bringing them closer to level and same thing with turning their head if they baby likes to turn their head only to the right side. Then work on right now. Eat and make it a little bit harder, give a tiny little resistance to the right, make it a little bit harder, make them look for a toy a little bit further, and then see if they can go back to the other side, that challenge to what is easy, almost always allows us access to the other. I know it sounds backward. But if if you are feeling successful, what what is easy, then as you go and try the other, there’s usually in our nervous system of more acceptance of the other. And so that’s how we grow that. And then once you figure that out, you just keep going on repeat inviting what you want to see staying open and curious about what the baby how their baby responds.
Shelly 55:49
simple, that it’s more like meeting them where they’re at. And so you’re trying to force them to be somewhere that they’re not ready to be.
Christine Robenault 55:56
Yeah, and I think you know, as adults, I don’t want to be forced, I love swimming, I love going into the pool or into a lake or the ocean, I hate cold water. And if you push me in that cold water, I’m going to be pretty pissed off at you. And yet I love swimming. And I can swim just fine. I swam on some team all through high school and into college. But don’t push me in that cold water. So why are we doing this with our babies change the environment, then they can show you what they know. We need to help them create access to what they know. And that internal and external environment of safety is going to automatically allow them to have access. And then if we’ve got kiddos who have structural changes or challenges in their body, then we can really kind of see okay, that is where that tongue tie is holding you back. All right now I see it. But if we’ve got all of these things, the environmental stuff and the physical difficulties, how can you parse it out where the problem is?
Shelly 57:00
So amazing, I am so glad that we had this talk. Where can parents connect with you and find out more about you?
Christine Robenault 57:08
Okay, well, I think the best place where I would love for you to connect with me is on my podcast, sparkler parents, because I’m really making this for you, five to eight minute little segments of how to create present moment awareness for yourself and your children. This was something I had to learn. I’m still learning it. And I think it’s a process and just staying open to the process. So I laugh because I often listen to my old episodes, or me. Because I need to ground myself I need to kind of be like, oh, right, Christine, you did say that. So I would love for you to join me on the podcast, I’ve taken a little bit of a hiatus. And since my own work life as a physical therapist has gotten a little crazy. My three kids of my own are getting bigger and having more things to do. So I’m gonna now start recording again. And I would love comments and feedback. And you can find me on Spotify, Apple Music, all of that outlets. I’m there.
Shelly 58:11
I’ll link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much again for joining me today.
Christine Robenault 58:15
Of course. Thank you.
Shelly 58:19
Thank you for joining us this week on the baby pro podcast. Make sure to visit our website Shelley chaff ibclc.com where you can check out more options for support for pregnancy and beyond, including the baby probe age group, our parenting community. You can also follow us on social media at Shelly tap ibclc on Instagram. If you love the show, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes to help our episodes reach more parents like you. Thanks for listening