My Journey With Breastfeeding with Cassandra Krosse

Cassandra, NICU nurse and aspiring IBCLC, shares her story of breastfeeding her son through tongue tie and food allergies.

Shownotes:

Introducing Cassandra Krosse, a passionate and committed mother, NICU nurse, and aspiring IBCLC with firsthand experience navigating the challenges and joys of breastfeeding. The journey of breastfeeding her son for ten months was tough as she needed to overcome the issues of allergies and a tongue tie along the way. However, she realized her calling as a support and guide to new mothers’ breastfeeding endeavors. Being part of the NICU, the invaluable insights she gained, where she witnessed the importance and struggles associated with breastfeeding, resulted in her acquired knowledge and compassion, which serve as tools for her to empower new moms in achieving breastfeeding success and building confidence in their abilities.

In this episode, you will learn the following:

• Find ways to conquer common breastfeeding challenges and trials and achieve personal triumphs.
• Acquire knowledge on ways of handling dairy and soy allergies in babies by means of dietary changes. 
• Learn the process of recognizing tongue-tie symptoms, finding professional help, and administering aftercare.
• Understand the need to seek support in the journey of breastfeeding.
• Go through unexpected challenges in motherhood and its journey of being an IBCLC-certified expert.

Connect with Shelly: 

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/shellytaftibclc/

Website: Massachusetts IBCLC | Lactation Consultant – Shelly Taft

00:00

The hardest thing for me was definitely eating with other people, whether it was at a restaurant where you kind of had to trust your waiter that they were actually checking to see if the oil was soil or butter. We definitely had experiences where we went to restaurants and ended up having to leave because they literally only cooked with soil.

00:20

Hi, I’m Shelly. I’m Maria. And you’re listening to the baby pro podcast, where we talk about everything in anything related to pregnancy and through the first year of your child’s life. Every episode we will discuss an interview experts and all the answers to the questions expected new parents want to know, such as creating the perfect birth plan, infancy, and tips and tricks for parenting a newborn and welcome to the show.

00:45

Hey, Maria.

00:46

Hey, Shelly. How was your mother’s day? Sorry, uneventful. Name, too. Yeah. With the oh, I

00:55

will say we went to a friend of mine had a Mother’s Day dance party. I guess she typically throws it every year. And she invited us this year. And it’s just you know, a big, like, Mother’s Day dance party in her apartment. And like, all the kids can come of stuff too.

01:11

Because, you know, it’s kind of hard for me to go out at night if I can’t bring Morgan with me. So that was good. That sounds a lot of fun. Were there a lot of people there? I mean, it’s a small apartment. So she didn’t she invited, you know, a reasonable number of people to be there to kind of people came in. He even went up to actual Mother’s Day. Remember? That sounds like a Mother’s Day. Very special. Yeah.

01:40

Yeah, we can do that much either. It’s the first Mother’s Day since my mom passed. So I was kind of like, I would just rather actually pretend that it’s not Mother’s Day. Yeah. But I mean, I went in. I mean, it was depressing. I went and visited her grave. Right. It has made me cards, and then I just hung out at home. It’s like not in the celebrating. Yeah, but I think a lot of people that I did talk to you had a good Mother’s Day, so I’m thankful for that for them.

02:07

Yeah, I do. Now remember what we did on Mother’s Day, we went to the New Hampshire Ren Faire. Oh, no way.

02:14

So tell me a little bit more about that. Is it like a like a Renaissance Faire kind of thing? Yeah. Is that cheaper than the King Arthur’s fair? Because I’ve always wanted to go out most most red fares are cheaper than King Arthur’s King is such a ripoff. I’ve never gone because it just seems so pricey, but I always wanted to go. A similar thing.

02:36

I will say like, it’s a little bit of a betrayal on my end to say that because I have a lot of friends that actually work at the king Richards they’re

02:51

sitting there like baseball referring people.

02:55

Oh my god. Hey, I’m

03:00

pretty sure all my friends right now just went.

03:05

They’re not quite sure why. But at least you have friends to piss off.

03:12

You’re winning. You’re winning Maria.

03:15

It was a nice day though. It was super windy. But sunny skies and pleasantly warm. And it was a nice little fare. I don’t I’m not sure if I had been to that one before. But my best friends were vending at that fair too.

03:30

So it was kind of like a listen, I was there. So your best friends were not there. Some of my best friends were there. Listen to you. I have so many best friends. So

03:42

now you know what I had the conversation with somebody recently that I haven’t spoken to in a while. And she was like apologizing for not being in touch like this past year. Okay, because she was having some health issues. And I was i i have only really kept in touch with like a handful of people this year. That’s pretty much all I have been able to accomplish. So you’re fine. Okay. Big deal.

04:07

That’s your bandwidth right now.

04:10

Speaking of

04:12

bandwidth, I came across this article about the maybe you’ve seen this that they did a study and they found out that the fear of childbirth was intensified by the COVID 19 pandemic.

04:26

I think I’ve heard that before.

04:31

I wonder if it just has to do did they go to talk about why?

04:35

It just says they collected prenatal data from 1775 individuals from April 2020 to February 2021. Before they gave birth, and after they gave birth 60% of participants had politically high levels of childbirth fear also known as Toko phobia, aka phobia. That sounds like fear of tacos Toko And then it goes on to say that black mothers had a 90% higher chance of having childbirth fear than white mothers. Which don’t make sense. Yeah. But it’s interesting because they say that they don’t really have a lot of pre pandemic data to go on related specifically to fear of childbirth. So they did say that they were comparing it to international studies. So that could be a weakness in the study right there. Yeah, that’s

05:33

kind of a big weakness in the study. But here in the US, our childbirth rates are something to be feared in the hospital. Yep. So I’ve decided

05:44

to do take a little bit different approach on this week’s topic, and do some more personal stories about breastfeeding. So this week, we’re interviewing Cassandra, who is a NICU nurse and currently studying to take her ibclc exam, right, and she’s going to tell us about her story, breastfeeding her son, who is now eight months or nine months old, sorry, and all the struggles that she went through.

06:13

But first, I have a question for you, or question of the week. Question

06:19

of the Week.

06:23

This week’s question was submitted through Instagram. And if you have a question that you would like us to answer on the podcast, you can submit it to Instagram. I’m at Shelly tap ibclc and just shoot me a DM. And we will answer your question. This week’s question is my baby gags on the pacifier every time we try to offer it should we continue to try

06:41

it? No. No.

06:45

That’s pretty straightforward. Now, if your baby’s not able to tolerate a pacifier, there’s no not really any reason to keep shoving in their face.

06:55

I will say that if they’re gagging on the Binky, possible exaggerated gag reflex. And depending on the age of the baby, which they didn’t say, when they ask their question, if they haven’t started offering bottles, yet, they probably should soon, because that can be like a telltale sign that maybe might have trouble taking the bottle if they if they don’t leave the pacifier. And if you if it is because the baby has like an exaggerated gag reflex, you can work with an ibclc to do some SEC training to get rid of that. But babies don’t need pacifiers.

07:29

Yeah, I mean, I was find that to be a funny question I get from parents that want my opinion on pacifiers. And all I can think is like why do you want just another thing that you have to smile from at some point?

07:47

The dog from eating? Yeah.

07:49

And like, it’s even in the name pacifier, the

07:53

point of the tool is to pacify your baby. And I just that always kind of bothers me. I will say that I have worked with a few babies that would not take the pacifier and they wish that they would. Because and this is not a common situation at all. This is more rare. Yeah. But sometimes occasionally you’ll have a baby with really high suckling needs that they over eat. And it’s not because they’re so hungry. It’s because they just want to suckle and they can’t take the pacifier. So mom keeps putting me again in the breast. Right? And then they get reflux and upset tummy and it starts this kind of like vicious cycle. Sometimes to those babies. I’m like, Dude, why can’t you just take the pacifier? Because it’s helping this object. Everybody.

08:37

Just did this one thing for me. And babies are

08:43

like, I don’t like you though. So.

08:47

Yeah. And sometimes, like with babies, especially with gag reflexes, and pacifiers, sometimes it’s about the shape of their palate. Sometimes it’s about the shape of the pacifier. Both sometimes it’s both Yeah. And I do find that they babies with in my experience with the exaggerated gag reflexes often have really high palates.

09:13

Really high palate. Yeah. Like, like, you’re kind of like we’re making her go.

09:19

Like that. They’re touching their brain and yeah, and they’re always stuffy. Yeah,

09:25

they have high palate. Yeah. Yeah, high pellets can be tough. When I see when I do bottle consults, I would say 95% of the Time Baby has a high palate. So I guess the answer TLDR. If your baby does fine, without the pacifier, there is no need to continue to try to get baby to take it especially if they’re not enjoying that process. We don’t want to create any oral aversions right? But if you have concerns like bottle feeding, maybe when you try taking the bottle, they won’t take it or breastfeeding and definitely see an ibclc because sometimes that exaggerated gag reflex II N Not always but can be a sign that something is going on structurally with the baby. Yeah.

10:10

That was a great question. And

10:11

next up is our interview with Cassandra. This week we are speaking with Cassandra Crossy, who is a NICU nurse and a mom and an aspiring ibclc. And she’s going to share her personal breastfeeding journey with us. And her journey includes breastfeeding with allergies and a tongue tie. Thank you, Sandra,

10:36

how are you? I’m good. How are you? Good.

10:39

I want to thank you for coming on the show today to share your personal story. I know sometimes that can’t be easy, especially if you did struggle with breastfeeding. So I appreciate you being here.

10:48

I’m excited to be here and share my journey.

10:52

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?

10:54

Sure. I’m Cassandra Crossy. I live in Massachusetts. And I’ve been a NICU nurse since I graduated college a few years now. And I became a mom to my adorable son about 10 months ago now. And so our breastfeeding journey is going 10 months strong. And I think that we’ve really had challenges and triumphs throughout the time so far. And it’s really been awesome to me, like I found it so incredible what our bodies are capable of doing. And I’ve really become very interested in breastfeeding in general. And it’s led me to pursue my ibclc education myself, which is something that I definitely didn’t see coming when I started this

11:41

last year.

11:42

I think we all kind of just fall into this job. There are no little kids walking around saying I want to be a lactation consultant. I think everyone who ends up in this job, there’s like a reason either through personal experience or something like that. So when you are pregnant with your son, well, how did you make that decision that you wanted to breastfeed? Or? I mean, did you even make that decision? Because some people think they want a formula feed. And then when the baby’s born, they change their minds, things like that.

12:10

Yeah, I definitely knew that I wanted to breastfeed right from the start. But looking back, I’m not really sure how I came about making that decision, I guess. I mean, I definitely have a more natural mindset, I guess, like just the way that my husband and I eat like we like to use local seasonal foods. And I guess what’s more local than your own breast milk. But I also work in a NICU. So I definitely have exposure to breastfeeding. And I’ve seen what it takes for a lot of moms. And I think that that both inspired me and scared me a little bit. Because you definitely see how important it is to try to give your baby as much breast milk as you can, especially those preemies that what we have in the NICU, it can literally be life saving. But you also see the struggle of watching them pump all the time. And it’s extremely difficult for a lot of families. So I think that was definitely in the back of my mind while I was pregnant. But I was very lucky to deliver at term and be able to have a pretty straightforward breastfeeding journey. I guess you could say like I really pumped by choice, not

13:24

by anything that forced me to.

13:28

Was there anything that you did in the pregnancy to prepare for breastfeeding? Like take a class? Or was there a specific book you found super helpful?

13:36

No, I didn’t really prepare at all, I think that I really thought that what I knew from being in the NICU would be enough. And it definitely was helpful. Like I knew kind of how to position a baby. And I hadn’t I don’t know, I had a few different little tricks that I thought would work. But it definitely is different when it’s your own baby. And there’s a lot more to it than the few things that I’ve learned from the ibclc that I work with.

14:04

Do you feel like because of your job in the NICU that maybe you knew too much. Does that make sense? Because I always think if I had another baby now I would be terrified about breastfeeding. Whereas when I was having my babies before, I was lactation consultant, I was just like, yeah, it’s gonna work out whatever. But then, like you see a lot in your job of like, what can go wrong? Yeah, like you said, yeah, so I feel like it’s in some ways it puts you at a disadvantage.

14:33

So definitely while I was pregnant, that was a huge thing. I definitely knew too much. And I was very nervous about pregnancy and birth because of the things that we see go wrong. Breastfeeding, I guess. It wasn’t on my mind quite as much. But there were definitely things that I have seen in the NICU that I was like, Oh my God, I hope that would never happen to me and especially now that I’ve gone through a lot of the ibclc education I think gets even more. So like looking back as I’ve done the class and like, oh, gosh, like, this thing could have gone so much differently for me like, luckily,

15:09

it didn’t because of the, I guess,

15:13

lack of knowledge that I had before. But on the other hand, you’re right, sometimes knowing too much

15:19

is not what you need either. Right?

15:21

Yeah. I think if I had another baby right now, I would have been, I would be like, I don’t care as a boy girl. Just tell me this tongue tie.

15:28

Yeah, that will be my first question when I have another baby for sure.

15:33

So how did this start of your breastfeeding journey go?

15:36

So things actually started out like, really well, and when I was in the hospital, he latched right away. I felt like my milk came in right away. The hospital that I delivered at actually did have decent lactation support. We saw somebody every day, it was usually pretty quick visits, like Oh, great. You see milk, baby is peeing pooping great, you guys are doing great. And really everybody that we saw just kind of reiterated like you guys are doing fantastic. And we had a doula who also did lactation, I think looking back, she was probably a CLC. But she came in did our postpartum appointment, maybe like a week or maybe two weeks after he was born. And she was just so complimentary of like, oh, my gosh, you guys are doing amazing. You’re like a second time mom. And I was a new mom and I knew something. But I was very uncertain as well. So I was hesitant to believe that everything was great. So I was asking her about if I needed more lactation support in the future, like, how would I go about that reaching out to her? And she was like, Oh, you could just text me. But you know, I really don’t think that you’re going to need any help. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I guess we don’t need any help. And looking back, I think, I’m not sure how I feel about all of those comments that we got in those first couple of weeks. Because on one hand, like I do think that there’s something to be said for instilling confidence in a new mom, because it does make you feel like okay, my baby is being fed, we’re we’re doing this. But at the same time, I’m looking back and wondering if those comments might have prevented me from seeking Lactation Support sooner and potentially recognizing some of the problems that we did end up having, because of course, we did have them, we ended up having a dairy and soy allergy. And as well as a tongue tie, which, you know, lactation wouldn’t have been able to prevent either of those things. But I think that if they were caught sooner, both of them that or it could have been a little bit easier. And I don’t know, I just look back and wonder if those comments. They were well meaning, but I’m not sure if they were the best things to say.

17:56

Yeah, I agree. And there’s all there’s like a huge difference between hospital ibclc and stay private practice ibclc. Right. So I worked in the hospital for 10 years, and you you know, you’d go in, and it’s like you have six hours to see these 30 Something patients. So all you really have time to do is just, you know, maybe put the baby on and sit around for a couple of minutes and say great job and then walk out of the room because you have to be on to the next patient. Do you feel the fact that you were a NICU nurse that maybe that they assumed that you had that you had it down pat because of your job. And I know that that’s something that a lot of nurses when they are hospitalized for whatever reason will not tell the staff that they’re a nurse, because they don’t want any assumptions to be made about how much knowledge they have or how much confidence they have.

18:47

Yeah, that’s an interesting point. I don’t know. I mean, I guess the ibclcs had my record and perhaps would have seen the note that I was the nurse in my chart or something, but I don’t really remember enough conversation with them that they even probably, or at least that I told them that I was a nurse. So I think that you’re completely right about just like having a lot of patients and having to move on to the next mom who you know, is is really struggling. But with the doula that was also was the lactation consultant. I think that that definitely played a role because I think she came in and was like, oh, like saying you’re like a second time mom. Like I think that that was kind of because I had the NICU experience. I I knew the basics of newborn care. But like I said before, it’s so different when it’s your baby.

19:34

And I’m really glad that you brought that up because sometimes they will work with like a first time parent. And I’ll say similar comments, mostly because they get the diaper change like that. And usually with first time parents, it’s like a 10 to 15 minute process and both the parents are like in there as well. Yeah, yeah. And then like the second or third time mom, you’re like okay, just strip the baby down and change their diaper and they’re just done before Have you been turned Packer? So you are obviously very comfortable handling babies, changing diapers folding them. So I can see where she would get that impression. But yeah, I totally understand your feelings about like, maybe that wasn’t the best thing to say,

20:14

yes, because holding your baby and changing their diaper is like, wildly different than knowing that they’re latched well, and that they’re getting enough milk and that the things that they’re doing all the time are normal. Because at work, I have the nurse practitioner and the doctors that I can be like, Well, I’m not sure about that particular thing. Like, let me get a second opinion about it. Whereas at home, it’s, it’s my husband knows a lot less than I do.

20:41

You are the second opinion. So in the beginning, it sounds like you didn’t have any nipple damage or latching. I was very lucky in the beginning. And the baby that your baby gained? Well, yes.

20:57

He lost, I think close to 10% of his birth weight when we were in the hospital. But I remember like that third night, or whatever it was when it was kind of like he had been losing and we had to make a gain. And he ultimately did and gained well, from there. We never really had issues, which is why I definitely didn’t suspect that we would have like a tongue tie or anything like that.

21:20

So when did you suspect that something wasn’t quite right, like when did things start to take a turn for you?

21:28

When he was about three months old, he had always been a happy spinner, like, lots of spit all the time. But it didn’t seem to bother him except sometimes he would act, I don’t know, like something was markedly different about the spinning like he would get very uncomfortable. And the Spitz would kind of be more cottage cheesy than the average one. And you could just tell that something really was bothering him. So I, you know, started Googling, of course, and said to my husband, I’m just going to try to cut out dairy and see what happens. And of course, like 48 hours later, we opened his diaper and there’s blood flex in his boop. So we went into the pediatrician. And they were like, Well, we think we’re doing a great thing by cutting out dairy. That’s the first step, like, do that for a couple of weeks. And if nothing gets better, then we can talk about cutting out other things after that. But honestly, very little guidance at all. And when you Google it, I mean, I know, you know that there is such contradictory information about food allergies, and babies and how long you have to cut something out before, before it will have an effect. And so I it was really a tough month trying to figure out what it was that was bothering my son.

22:49

Right? Because blood in the stool just means that there’s inflammation in the gut, right? Which can be caused by many things, not just food allergies. So sometimes it’s not even a food allergy and you’re being told to take out dairy, then that doesn’t work. So you’re told, okay, let’s try taking soy, then wheat, then egg. And pretty soon the only thing that you can eat like chicken and broccoli. And it’s still not resolving.

23:13

Right? I definitely had like a bit of a spiral where I was convincing myself that basically everything that I ate was bothering him like at one point, I was convinced that it was boats. And so I took out oats for a couple of weeks. And that didn’t work. And honestly, it’s kind of a blur looking back, like I don’t even really remember how we landed on dairy and soy being cut out of the diet. I just know that within about a month, we had taken out dairy and soy and I was eating everything else. And we seemed to be in a better place. The blood in his stool did last a little bit longer than that. But the doctors were very as long as he’s happy then they weren’t concerned about it. And his behavior definitely did improve at that time. So we just went with it. And I was dairy and soy free for six months.

24:07

And that’s hard, especially when you’re doing both dairy and soy because dairy is in a lot of things that you wouldn’t expect it to be in. And then I feel like soy is in everything. Like if it comes in a package. It probably has soy in it.

24:21

We were very lucky that we live near a Whole Foods and there’s so many options for allergen free foods, vegan things. Because definitely when you’re a new mom, you need packaged snacks sometimes like even if you like to cook, you can’t always be you can’t always be perfect. The hardest thing for me was definitely eating with other people, whether it was at a restaurant where you kind of had to trust your waiter that they were actually checking to see if the oil was soil or butter. We definitely had experiences where we went to restaurants and ended up having to leave because they literally only cooked with soil And then also eating out or not eating out, but just eating with friends and family who were cooking for you. That is often really hard because a lot of people don’t really understand what is happening with you. They’re like, Oh, you can’t you are a dairy. You have a dairy allergy now like, No, I don’t. But my son does. And it’s very hard to explain sometimes. And then, on top of that, people don’t know what dairy is, like, I know my grandmother a few times was making me things and I was like, Man, I Is there any butter in here? And she’s like, Yeah, a little bit. And I was like, Okay, well, I

25:37

can’t eat. Yeah,

25:40

it kind of reminds me of the movie, My Big Fat Greek Wedding where he’s like, I’m a vegetarian and the yawns like, That’s okay. I’ll make lambs.

25:48

I’ll make lamb that’s such a good movie. Yeah, of course, I found out that I had the that my son had these allergies, right before Thanksgiving. So of course, giving and Christmas were tough. I made myself a dairy and soy free pumpkin pie for both holidays. And I was like, at least I’ll have dessert.

26:07

I’m really glad that you did that. So are you comfortable sharing your baby’s name?

26:14

Sure. Yeah, his name is Dean. Dean. Okay,

26:17

so what are the symptoms did Dean have besides the blood in the stool, and the fuzziness, were there any other symptoms

26:23

that he had? That was pretty much it, it was just moments that he was really fussy and spitty. But he definitely spit a lot thick cottage cheese type spirits, and the blood

26:34

in the stool. And then you said it took like about a month for you to start to see those symptoms resolved?

26:41

Yes, it was when we cut out soy, I remember that. We started seeing a big improvement. And I remember just being like, on willing to try to go back to dairy. Like I was like, it’s entirely possible that the dairy is not bothering him at all. But I don’t know, I felt I guess that it was worth just keeping it out of my diet for a little while just to to keep his symptoms at bay. I think it’s obviously really hard when your baby is upset or struggling about something with something. And you know that it could potentially be something that you’re doing, or at least that you could prevent. And it’s really hard not knowing what that thing is that you could do to

27:24

prevent. Right, totally agree. So what

27:29

happened after that? Well, first, are you still dairy and soy free?

27:33

No, I actually just started incorporating dairy and soy back into my diet. Like a few weeks ago, we started kind of slow. I did like some butter first. And then I did. I did it for a week. And then I did some cheese. And I was just going to do it like one day and then see for a couple of days. And then I was just like, No, we went all in Nice. Yeah. And now he is actually also eating some cheese as well, which is super exciting. Yeah, have a good day

28:01

dairy free with my second baby. And then I just reintroduced it after a year and she seemed fine. They do they do outgrow it most of the time.

28:10

Yeah. It’s also hard though, when you reintroduce because you can convince yourself that anything that they’re doing is a reaction like he’s been teething. So it’s like busy teething, or is he upset because of stomach hurts, because we choose, you know, and I think

28:26

that’s really confusing for parents when they’re trying an elimination diet is there’s this kind of myth out there that it takes four to six weeks for dairy to leave your system. And that is simply not true. Dairy leaves your system within a matter of hours. It’s just it can take that long for your baby’s gut to heal. So even though your body and your milk no longer has dairy proteins in it, your baby still might have some symptoms for a little bit until the gut heals. Did you find that that’s probably why it took a month to see any real difference?

28:59

Yes, I think so. And definitely, there’s so much information about how long it takes. And every single website is contradictory your podcasts that you did with Dr. Trail from free to feed. I just listened to that for the first time, like maybe a month ago. And I just remember thinking like, I wish that I had had this six months ago when we first started because it was like it just made sense what she was saying about how things leave your breast milk so quickly. And it gave it made me feel a lot more free about what I was able to do. I had one time that I was going away for a day. And I was like okay, well I can kind of eat what I want and be confident that when I get home that it won’t be in my milk anymore.

29:39

Yep, love it.

29:42

So tell us a little bit about the tie.

29:45

Yeah, so the tongue tie was diagnosed when he was about four months old. And so that was actually the first time that I did seek a lactation consultant. I saw an ibclc locally and I was going in mostly because I felt like when I was trying to feed him in public, it was getting hard, because he was like, pushing himself off of me and was unlatching all the time. And it seemed like a little bit more than just like, normal distraction. Like, I don’t know, it was just difficult. So I was like, I’ll just go in and get some chips from her. And I definitely wasn’t expecting a tongue tie diagnosis. And we never had any issues with like nipple pain or weight gain or any of the things that I feel like you classically think of with the tie. But I went in and he started nursing. And my lactation consultant was just like, kind of horrified. She She said it any woman who has ever nursed a baby, before that watches, you guys would just wince in pain at the way that he has latched on you. And I was like, really? Like, I’m not in any pain. And I knew that our lash, you know, it was kind of funky. I had stopped her health, but I definitely wasn’t expecting that level of, I don’t know.

31:07

So what are some ways that your visit with this ibclc differed with like, the ibclc is in the hospital? Like how did the process go differently? Can you tell us a little bit

31:19

Oh, she was so much more thorough than the ibclcs. In the hospital, I actually spent time like watched us latch and kind of tried a few things, to change his positioning and change the way that he was on me to try to see if that would make him more comfortable and less, pushing himself off of the breast. She did weighted feeds, which was really cool, because that was the first time that I had ever been able to see like, oh, he takes this much for me, which gave me a lot of confidence without telling me that I didn’t need any help.

31:51

And so how was he gaining? While he had a tongue tie was that explained? What she

31:57

told me is that she thinks that my body was just really compensating for what he could do. And that, I don’t know if it was kind of like my letdown was just going right into his mouth. And he wasn’t having to do a lot of work. But she said that it was mostly because my body was compensating.

32:15

Yeah, and I see that a ton with usually 90% of the time if I looking at a baby who has a tongue tie, but is gaining Well, it’s not because you’re super great feeders. It’s because they’re the moms body’s just like, here’s the milk and you don’t have to do any of the work. But that can start to kind of feel after a while when your supply down regulates, which usually happens around three to four months and six months. Yeah, which really scared me. So how is that? How is his tongue tie related to him like popping off

32:48

the breast? I think that it’s because when he was on my breast, he was pushing himself off in order to get like only a little bit of my nipple in his mouth. And that was letting his tongue kind of just press up on that rather than having to work with like, more of the areola.

33:08

Now I get it I get so you know, if they if they have a huge mouth, but their mouth is open, why? If a baby can’t bring their tongue up all the way to the roof of their mouth, and they have their mouth open wide, it’s going to feel a lot harder to get that tongue up. Right versus if they have a really shallow latch, it’s going to be a lot easier to to get the tongue up because there’s not much space that they have to travel their tongue across.

33:32

Yes, that is what I was trying to say. And did he take a pacifier? He did. He never had an issue with it. And did he do bottles? Okay, he did. Okay, we would always do one bottle a day from when he was a couple of weeks old. Okay, and he never had a problem. So

33:48

that was really your only symptom. You’re only inkling that maybe something’s going on is that he was just on and off a lot. Yeah. And then you went in I did notice information.

33:57

Yes. I noticed afterwards, too. One of the other things he was doing that was a sign of the tie is that he was making a lot of like clicking noises when he was eating, which was Tim unlatching. But it wasn’t something that I was as aware of because he was marching and latching right back on, which was a little different than the reason that I had booked the appointment to begin with. But the ibclc did recommend that we get the tie released. She gave us a great recommendation for a pediatric dentist. And we initially went to see the dentist, we wanted a second opinion. And we definitely after seeing her believed that he did have a tongue tie. You definitely fit the bill. But we were also like, everything is going fine though. So why trying to mess with something that’s currently working like for gaining weight or not having pain, and I definitely had some concerns about my supply, but we were also like pushing towards the five month mark at that point. And so I was pretty sure that I wouldn’t have any supply issues. But So initially, our thought was that we were not going to get it released. And then a couple of weeks later, I kind of had a change of heart, and started thinking about some of the down the road issues that can present with the tongue tie, like, particularly issues with solid foods or speech or breathing. And so we made an appointment to get the release done. This was when he was like, five, five and a half months. And we got COVID, the day before the appointment. No, yeah. And Dean was pretty sick, had fevers. So we cancelled the appointment, obviously, and the office told us that we had to wait two weeks before we could reschedule it, because he had, he had COVID. And in the meantime, that is right around when we had first introduced solid food. And at first he was loving it, like ate everything that I would give him. And then after we had COVID, he was not wanting anything to do with the spoon, like anytime that the spoon would try to put it near his mouth or give him the food and try to let him feed himself, he had no interest at all. And so I think being a NICU nurse, I like jumped to the worst conclusion of, well, if we do this tongue tie release, then we’re going to end up giving him an oral aversion, because we’re going to be putting our fingers in his mouth multiple times a day with the stretches afterwards, and he’s already not eating. So this is going to make him not want to eat even more. So I ended up canceling that first appointment that I made, which I wrote in my journal at the time, basically, an entry to my future self from my current self that was like, if you in a couple of months wish that we did this, then I’m sorry. But at the moment, this is the best decision for our family, like defending myself to my future self. So I don’t regret not doing it then. But a few months down the line, when he was eight months, we did decide that we needed to do it, the dentist that we saw had kind of recommended that we do it by the time he was a year old at the latest and that if you waited until after that, then you really don’t want to do it until they’re like six or seven, I think she had said, and I was just terrified that we would get to like 15 months, and that I would wish that we had done it and then be stuck, unable to do the procedure for years. And he also has a bit of a high palate because of the tongue tie. And so with foods, he did start loving food again, of course after COVID It was just a little bit of a post illness thing. But he was starting to kind of pocket food in his palate. And that made me really nervous. And that kind of pushed us in the direction of getting the release done.

37:48

And which which dentist did you go to Heidi Aronson and well,

37:53

yeah, she she was wondering yes, on the podcast before I listened to her episode, too. Yes, yes. So cool. So what was that passes? Like? Can you explain what it looks like for you when you went to go see her for that initial console? And then after for the release?

38:06

Yeah. So the initial consults, we just kind of went into a back room. And she like had a PowerPoint about what she does, what a tongue tie is how she releases it a lot of information, and answered questions that we had. And it was an option for right after that for us to immediately do it. But we had decided at that point that we were holding off. So when we came back for the actual release, it was really, really quick. They took him back. I mean, he must have been back there for like, less than a minute. And then they pulled us back to the room where they had done it and gave him to me and he was too upset at that time to nurse, but quickly settled down. And by the time we got home, he kind of acted like nothing happened, honestly, really, like Yeah, he slept fine for the following days wasn’t extra fussy. No, he definitely didn’t like the stretches, which was what we anticipated that that would be the worst part. But I was very concerned that after the stretch, he would like be upset still, like why are you doing this to me, but after the stretch, he would just go back to playing he was doing and I don’t think emotionally scar him in any way by doing the procedure. So I’m definitely glad that we that we went ahead and did it.

39:26

Yeah, it is a really quick procedure. I heard of a dad that was like I didn’t even finish swiping my credit card before they brought the baby back. And I I’ve spent the day at Heidi’s office watching her do releases and she’s so nice and kind to the babies when she brings them back.

39:44

And it is such a quick procedure. She was wonderful with the follow up to she texted us that I think it was that night. Just saying let me know if anything comes up and I did text her about something like a week later and she replied right away. She was really good. Right.

40:00

And so what does it what does the stretches look like? Like? What is that process

40:04

like?

40:05

Basically, we laid him down with his head and our laps, and tried to fit our fingers underneath his tongue to kind of gently pull his tongue up off of like the jaw and kind of just massage that area as much as he would let us.

40:21

And how many times a day did you have to do that?

40:25

Every four hours, including overnight,

40:28

including overnight, although she did tell us he generally sleeps and wakes up just once at night. So she told us that it was fine to just do it for that one time that he woke up like there was no reason for us to wake him up.

40:40

And did the stretches get easier as you went on?

40:43

It seemed like they got easier over the first like, week and a half maybe. And then I think, I don’t know, maybe it was because he had more control over his tongue or something. But it’s like, he got more creative with how to fight us off and did a better job of like holding his tongue down and making it really hard to get underneath. So he made it as tough on us as I think he could have.

41:08

Yes, leadership skills. It sounds like

41:12

yeah, but that’s also because he was eight months old when we did this. So I think it definitely would have been a lot different if we were doing that with a one month old baby.

41:22

And how many weeks did you have to do the stretches For?

41:24

For? For it? Did

41:26

you have any issues with reattachment or anything? Like no,

41:30

no, no. And he hasn’t had any like pocketing and his palate since we did it. So that has been really great. Yeah.

41:37

Do you feel like since his tongue was released that maybe his palate has dropped a little bit? Or do you feel like it’s still high?

41:46

It’s definitely still high. The ibclc that I worked with said it probably will take a while for the palette to drop she recommended doing a lot of like, tea there’s that go way back there that kind of like promote the jaw to expand?

42:01

And what kind of tea there’s does she recommend?

42:04

We have this one with like an apple and it vibrates that she had in her office and Dean like loved it from the second but she pulled it out. So we had to get one of those. But yeah, I don’t actually know the brand of it or anything like that. But just like long wide that he can like really get in the back of his mouth.

42:23

And he likes other toys to to be in. Yeah, like I like the old ball for after release. With an older baby set ball with like all those holes in it.

42:33

They hold it up. I don’t he doesn’t have one of those.

42:35

Oh, he doesn’t. I like that one too. Because if you if they’re working on telling extension, because they try to bring it to their mouth, but they can’t like fit it in their mouth. So they stick their tongue out

42:44

in the look into that. That’s so cute.

42:47

So what did what changes? Did you notice right away, if any?

42:52

Honestly, with his latch,

42:54

I think it kind of is what it is. At this point. I do think that he’s maybe unlatching a little bit less than he used to like I’m noticing less clicking noises. But what we were doing was working for us. And honestly, so I, I didn’t have that much of an expectation around the latch being different. We did go back to the ibclc. And she kind of agreed that there was no reason to try to work too hard on changing it because we’ve been doing this this way for a long time now. But like I said, the eating solid foods has been way better, he hasn’t had any pocketing. And we’ve been getting more ambitious with the foods that we are willing to give him because there was a period of time that I was nervous to give him things like toast or egg that those things were sticking in the in the roof of his mouth more often.

43:50

So he’s 10 months old now, right? He’s about to be 10 months old. So this wasn’t that long ago, that was no one. Okay. And I agree, like once they hit a certain age, like they’re gonna have a kind of a older way. These kind of have crappy lashes just because they’re kind of over it and it works. So that’s fine. So it sounds like you were doing it more for future issues. Yes

44:11

to prevent ethical issues. Okay.

44:13

Okay. And did you work with any sort of body worker OT or SLP? After?

44:19

No, we never did. To be honest, I don’t know that much about it. I’ve, you know, heard about it on podcast, but didn’t know how to proceed. We thought about seeing a feeding therapist regarding the food pocketing, but since things have gotten better, we’re kind of like, just rolling with it and seeing where it goes. And if we need to see one in the future, then we will but right now things seem to be

44:44

in a good place.

44:45

Yeah, not every baby needs help from a body worker OT or SLP. So if it sounds like the little tweaks that you wanted to make with what he was doing with solid foods happened, then they wouldn’t be a reason to. So how did the How did This whole journey, change how you feel about breastfeeding and motherhood in general.

45:06

I think that one of the big takeaways that I have from my whole experience is that you really don’t know what you can do until you’re faced with it. My husband has a co worker who had to give up a lot of foods while she was breastfeeding, all three of her kids. And I had said to him, when that was happening, like, Oh, my God, I don’t know how she’s doing that I could never do that. And when it came down to me, having to give up foods, it was like a super easy decision, honestly. And so I think I’ve been trying to remember that as I move through parenthood generally. And just keep in mind, like, anytime I think something sounds scary or something, I won’t be able to do that in the future. Like, I don’t know what I can do until I’m faced with it. And we’ll meet every challenge as it comes.

46:02

I love that so much the things we do for our kids. I know, and they never appreciate it ever.

46:10

I look at him sometimes and wonder they’ll ever know.

46:14

Maybe if he has a baby, he’ll get it.

46:18

But he won’t have to give up dairy and soy.

46:22

And you’re you’re pursuing your ibclc? Yes. And would you say that’s a result of your experience? Oh, yes,

46:31

that’s definitely a result of my experience. I have always been interested in like the birth sphere. Generally, obviously, I’m a NICU nurse, I have always thought that I would be in the like labor and delivery and postpartum fields of nursing. But I don’t think that I would have made the jump to pursue this route of my career, if I hadn’t had this experience. And if I hadn’t, if I had had the one spectrum or the other of breastfeeding, like a really hard time where I ended up quitting, because it was so hard, or having like an easy journey where nothing wrong happened. And it was just like, the most simple thing in the world, I think I had a real mix of both challenges and joys that that came from it. And it made me definitely want to help other moms to meet the struggles that they might come to face, and be able to come out on the other side of it and be approaching a year of breastfeeding, and have it feel just like part of your life. Like it’s not a big event anymore.

47:37

Right? Yeah. I love that. And if you were talking to a family that was expecting their baby, what one thing would you want them to know about breastfeeding?

47:50

So this is something I’ve been thinking a lot about. I think as I’ve been thinking about what I want to say, tonight, I think that the biggest support that you can have, and I know this is not the most simple thing that like is easy to get. But I think it’s so helpful to not be the only person that you know, who is breastfeeding. So hopefully you have somebody else in your life a friend or a family member who is breastfeeding their child or did breastfeed their child successfully. Or I got really lucky that I made a friend in my childbirth education class. And so she was kind of my other person. And even though we were both new moms at the same time, I felt like she just birth her baby and was confident in her breastfeeding experience right away. And I’ll never forget that when we were, I don’t know, our babies must have been like six weeks old, we met up to go for a walk. And her daughter started fussing. And she picked her up and started nursing her while we were walking down the street in my neighborhood. And I was like, mind blown. Like that was so amazing to me, I was only breastfeeding sitting on my couch with my Boppy pillow. And I needed all the things or at least I thought I needed all the things, but being able to see her just nurse whenever her baby needed to I was like maybe I can do that too. And I think that having that, I don’t know, inspiration, I guess, made me get a lot more comfortable more quickly, with nursing Dean in public and just making it be a part of my life. My yoga teacher used to say that when you’re doing something in life, like whatever journey that you’re on, you don’t necessarily need an expert. You just need somebody who’s like a little bit farther down the path than you and that you can feel call out. It’s this way. And so you can kind of just see the direction to go. And I think that that’s a perfect way to put having breastfeeding support like having professional support is definitely important. But sometimes Having somebody in your real life to tell you that you need professional support or just to give you advice.

50:07

That’s invaluable. 100%

50:10

clapping for you. Yeah, I love that, you know, even just the the feeling of like, I’m not alone in my, because my, my son had colic and he screamed all the time. And I remember the first time I went to a mom’s group and the woman next to me her baby scream the entire two hours, that I was there, and I felt so much better. I was the only one going. But you know, especially in the US where typically we don’t grow up watching babies being breastfed. No, unless your mom was like breastfeeding, a much younger sibling, you’re not out in public, where there’s obvious people breastfeeding everywhere, like there are in some cultures. So a lot of women giving birth, have never even seen a baby breastfeed. And so if you’ve never even seen it, how do you know what to do? Right? You could take the class exactly, but it’s very different than growing up surrounded by it and just naturally ingraining it into your brain and

51:08

yeah, naturally having it around you, but and also having that person who’s there, you know, if it was your mother, to be able to ask questions, like I know, personally, like the women in my family, it may be tried to breastfeed, but it didn’t last, you know, like it was something that they did for a month or two,

51:25

right. And so they want to help you, but they also don’t really know what they don’t know. Whereas in cultures where you know, generations have breastfed grandma is the first line of breastfeeding support. I do think that that’s where breastfeeding support groups can be super helpful. And I usually if I’m working with a family prenatally, go to a lychee League meeting, you can go when you’re pregnant, and you haven’t had your baby yet, because there’s nothing better to prepare for breastfeeding, to sit in a room full of breastfeeding parents, and just observe them observe how they hold their babies absorb how they feed their babies, observe how they respond to their babies. And then you can hear you know, the answers to the questions that they’re asking and gain knowledge that way too, but just just surrounding yourself.

52:11

Absolutely. I think that’s so so important. And I was going to say that because I know that not everybody just has somebody else in their life that is also breastfeeding. So I think going to things like childbirth classes, breastfeeding support groups, is a great way to connect with other people who are going through the same things as you.

52:29

Yeah. 100%.

52:31

Well, thank you so much for joining me, I loved your story, thank you for sharing it. I’m sure there are parents out there that are gonna find it really helpful. And I’m glad that you found the support that you needed and got things figured out. And I really, I really, really liked that you did on your own timetable. Like you didn’t feel rushed to do anything. It was just like, Okay, now I feel like we’re ready to go through with the release. And it was the right decision for you because it worked.

52:56

Yes, yes,

52:58

I definitely am glad that we did things on our own time. I’ve learned that you don’t have to rush every decision that you make in life. That has been another lesson that I that I could have mentioned before. But it’s been my pleasure to be here and share. Share my story. And yours. Thank you so much for having me.

53:16

Oh, yes.

53:17

You’re still going strong for a year. Your goal is that was my goal.

53:21

And now I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t I definitely am not going to just stop on his birthday. So we don’t really have a date anymore. Perfect.

53:31

All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

53:35

Thank you for joining us this week on the baby pro podcast. Make sure to visit our website Shelley chaff ibclc.com where you can check out more options for support through pregnancy and beyond, including the baby pro BH group, our parenting community. You can also follow us on social media at Shelly tap ibclc on Instagram. If you love the show, please leave us a rating or review on iTunes to help our episodes reach more parents like you. Thanks for listening